Great War Stukas? B-52's?

PC/MAC : Commander the Great War is the latest release in the popular Commander series to bring the thrill, excitement and mind-breaking decision making of these difficult times to life.

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Zombo
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Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Zombo » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:32 pm

I'm kinda surprised to see the impact of aircrafts in 1914. It's ok to stretch it a bit to make air units a little more fun, but hey, this is still supposed to be a simulation. Airplanes in 1914 were little more than oversized kites, and their mission was recon. There was no air support doctrine at all, there weren't any real fighters either, machine guns weren't even synchronised, etc...
In 1914, in addition to causing an effectiveness loss ( in my opinion the very maximum impact acceptable for 1914, possibly representing recon advantage of teh enemy, and that's stretching things a lot), but it's not rare to see a one casualty damage. One casualty is a frequent result of combat of Armies vs Armies!!!!! - that makes 1914 airplanes the equivalent of stukas, if not B-52's!!!!

There has been so many patches, hasn't anyone ever pointed that out?

Egge
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Re: Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Egge » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:55 am

The problem is fundamentally that early on ground units have no air attack value. Consequently, air units can attack them with impunity. As the war progresses, ground units do gain air attacks and attacking them will become much less useful.
I agree, this is a bit weird. It should be the other way round.

Zombo
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Re: Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Zombo » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:36 pm

It's a pity this has never been addressed. I mean, you don't need to be a WW1 specialist to know what aviation was like in 1914.

It makes the German 1914 campaign in France much more like 1940. Since air support often tips the scale, you can really give your offensive a big bonus by maximizing it, that is, sending both German "fighters" and the Austrian one, and pounding your target in order to ensure breakthrough. In my last game I got Antwerp in one turn thanks to the -3 effectiveness reduction caused by my "stukas", and that's when it doesn't cumulate with actual losses!

just the thought of it is ridiculous! Troops in a fortress affected by planes which were, in substance, unarmed!

As I said before, aviation's role back then was essentailly recon. This may have had some use during the war of movement ( it did against von Kluck approaching Paris) but a lot less vs entrenched troops, or in fortresses. Aviation's role slowly shifted towards artillery observation and air-ground support, but only very gradually, and only in the later hours of 1918 could we really have what the game allows players to do in 1914 - and that's stretching things a lot.

Sabratha
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Re: Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Sabratha » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:04 am

I'd rather see the air units not deal damage, but influence subsequent combat results (recon, arty spotting, etc).
In one way, this does often come close as the efficiency drop from AC is often more severe than the damage lost. Still, I wonder what can be done about this.

I'll take a look in my mod at this issue, hopefully will come up with something interesting.

Zombo
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Re: Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Zombo » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:02 am

I'd rather see the air units not deal damage, but influence subsequent combat results (recon, arty spotting, etc)
Definitely. But I think the effectiveness loss is an ok'ish way to simulate recon, spotting, etc... as long as it is limited to a -1 per turn! Air concentration makes absolutely no sense at the time. In fact, I think air "support" should evolve through 1) first phase: -1 effectiveness max (and ideally some potentail loss to the air unit due to very low durability of early aircrafts) 2) then around Tech level corresponding to 1917, the occasional one damage, 3) latest of the latest, historically corresponding to the 1918 final offensives, the possibility to hit the target with two air units ( not more) cumulating the effects

glad to hear you're working on a mod

When is it due and what does it include? Are there other "historical" mods around?

thanks

Sabratha
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Re: Great War Stukas? B-52's?

Post by Sabratha » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:26 pm

Zombo wrote:
I'd rather see the air units not deal damage, but influence subsequent combat results (recon, arty spotting, etc)
Definitely. But I think the effectiveness loss is an ok'ish way to simulate recon, spotting, etc... as long as it is limited to a -1 per turn! Air concentration makes absolutely no sense at the time. In fact, I think air "support" should evolve through 1) first phase: -1 effectiveness max (and ideally some potentail loss to the air unit due to very low durability of early aircrafts) 2) then around Tech level corresponding to 1917, the occasional one damage, 3) latest of the latest, historically corresponding to the 1918 final offensives, the possibility to hit the target with two air units ( not more) cumulating the effects

glad to hear you're working on a mod

When is it due and what does it include? Are there other "historical" mods around?

thanks
My mod is due "when its done", but by rough assessment probably sometimes october 2015, Gods willing.

As for -1 per turn... I would be ok with that if it was -1 per fighter attack max per turn. Thing is, the game treats this as an attack, so editing teh corresponding script would change the way ALL attacks work. This would in the end give the defender too much of an advantage even in WW1 west front conditions (no attacks would even impact effectivness)

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