Guns and Supports Flank Charged

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spotteddog
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Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by spotteddog » Fri May 22, 2015 8:24 am

Hi
If a BG hits both guns and supporting pike and shot on the flank what happens? Guns break, pike and shot test, turn, drop a level and fight, guns come off the JAP?
HH

kevinj
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by kevinj » Fri May 22, 2015 8:50 am

Here's my view:

At the time at which the guns are contacted, they have Rear Support (as defined on P126) so are not immediately captured. However, as the supporting BG are assumed to occupy the same space as the artillery (also P126) a flank contact with the guns will also be a flank contact on the supporting BG. The rear support BG becomes disrupted, turns and fights. If it subsequently routs the guns are then captured.

ravenflight
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by ravenflight » Fri May 22, 2015 9:25 pm

The P&S CAN'T turn and fight though, as they are occupying the same space as the guns.

This is a bit of a mess TBH, and my previous question on a similar situation received no replies... partly I think because there is no answers within the rules.

I'd say that the entire formation (in guns etc) turn to the flank. It's the only thing that fits with the rest of the rules and how every other combat would take place.

OR

The combat continues without the P&S being able to turn to the flank (similar to the way a Keil or Tercio would fight.

It's an area that isn't covered in the rules so far as I can see, and therefore I don't think can be definitively answered, so really needs to have a rules writer make an amendment... but I really doubt that's going to happen. If they aren't fixing the well discussed and commented on 'uncontrolled artillery becoming impassible terrain' and 'capture/recapture' problem, then they aren't going to fix this one either.

I'd say you're in a situation where you and your group have to determine what happens and stick with that.

daveallen
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by daveallen » Fri May 22, 2015 10:02 pm

It is sort of covered by the rules, but it's a bit awkward on the table.

Don't have my rules with me, but I seem to recall that an artillery base is mostly open ground with the guns occupying a very small area. Thus when artililery are supported the support troops actually occupy the same ground as the artillery base. So any flank attack must be on the position of the artillery and you have to treat the supporting elements as if they were in that position. Not too difficult to get your head around, though it will look odd on the table for the few minutes before the supports break.

Btw, who has troops to waste supporting artillery? Which makes me wonder if this is a random hypothetical from the Mel Gibson-istas designed to put us off their really cunning plans

Dave

ravenflight
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by ravenflight » Sat May 23, 2015 11:33 am

daveallen wrote:It is sort of covered by the rules, but it's a bit awkward on the table.

Don't have my rules with me, but I seem to recall that an artillery base is mostly open ground with the guns occupying a very small area. Thus when artililery are supported the support troops actually occupy the same ground as the artillery base. So any flank attack must be on the position of the artillery and you have to treat the supporting elements as if they were in that position. Not too difficult to get your head around, though it will look odd on the table for the few minutes before the supports break.
How can the artillery be 90 degrees to the flank charged P&S though?

quackstheking
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by quackstheking » Sat May 23, 2015 12:25 pm

I'm with Kevin on this one. Although the rules do not specifically cover this situation, Kevins suggestion is the practical interpretation and is what I too would rule.

This is more a case of the spirit of the rules rather than the letter.

Don

spotteddog
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by spotteddog » Mon May 25, 2015 10:07 am

kevinj wrote:Here's my view:

At the time at which the guns are contacted, they have Rear Support (as defined on P126) so are not immediately captured. However, as the supporting BG are assumed to occupy the same space as the artillery (also P126) a flank contact with the guns will also be a flank contact on the supporting BG. The rear support BG becomes disrupted, turns and fights. If it subsequently routs the guns are then captured.
Thanks Kevin

Both the flank of the guns and the flank of the pike and shot supports were contacted by the flankers. it was a real game.
HH

spotteddog
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by spotteddog » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:26 pm

Does that mean if you want charge a bg supporting guns in the rearvyou have to be in charge reach of the rear base of the guns?

kevinj
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Re: Guns and Supports Flank Charged

Post by kevinj » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:56 am

This comes down to a balance between logic and practicality. The principle is that the 2 BGs occupy the same space, but for practical reasons the representation on the table is that the foot sit behind the guns. I think you need to measure it to where the foot are on table rather than where they should be.

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