retiring when fragmented

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Vespasian28
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:04 pm

retiring when fragmented

Post by Vespasian28 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:53 pm

Rarely comes up but when it did we ended up with different interpretations:

1.If fragmented you can retire facing the enemy as a simple move as long as you end up further away from all enemy within 12MU.

2. As above but first you have to turn and then move away in subsequent turns unless of course you can turn and move i.e lights. This also means that for battle troops that first turn away will be a CMT as you are not moving away at that point.

Any definitive thoughts please as I could find nothing on the forums.

Thanks

benjones1211
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by benjones1211 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:30 am

Very interesting question

1) A breakoff move for infantry is to retire 4mu , for cavalry to retire their movement distance, all facing the enemy, unless stopped/slowed by intervening troops/terrain
2) If a unit is Fragmented it cannot move closer to any enemy within 12" unless passing a CMT

So does this mean if a Fragmented unit wishes to break off, and the Breakoff would take it closer to some other enemy within 12" does it need a CMT to do that breakoff, or is it stuck, or can it do it as its a breakoff.

I would have to read the full rules very carefully before deciding which to go with.

donm2
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:24 pm

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by donm2 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:29 pm

Vespasian28 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:53 pm
Rarely comes up but when it did we ended up with different interpretations:

1.If fragmented you can retire facing the enemy as a simple move as long as you end up further away from all enemy within 12MU.

2. As above but first you have to turn and then move away in subsequent turns unless of course you can turn and move i.e lights. This also means that for battle troops that first turn away will be a CMT as you are not moving away at that point.

If turning about takes the unit a full move, I would of thought it reasonable to count it as a simple move, as it is doing it's best to move away.

Any definitive thoughts please as I could find nothing on the forums.

Thanks
Just my view

Don

benjones1211
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by benjones1211 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:08 am

Turning through 180 does not get you closer to the enemy in any direction as you are on the same footprint so no CMT is needed.

Turning 90 can change the footprint so may need to have a CMT if part of the unit is getting closer to an enemy.

Notice its getting closer not getting further away.

Ben

Vespasian28
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:04 pm

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by Vespasian28 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:34 pm

Agreed that turning does not usually get you closer to the enemy. But the bit I was reading was on page 149 regarding fragmented troops where it says " a simple move to retire away from all enemy within 12 MU but must CMT for any other move". So turning in itself doesn't get you away from the enemy hence a CMT? Or have I missed something elsewhere that mentions closer?
One thing this does clear up amongst us was one possible interpretation that Battle Troops could just simply retire facing the enemy as a simple move but obviously a turn is needed which seems fair enough.

benjones1211
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:45 am

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by benjones1211 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:59 am

First of all, you are not forced to move so Fragmented troops can stay where they are.

They can make a Simple Move to retire away from all enemy within 12MUs
Advance
2nd Move
3rd Move
Contract if move more than 3MU Forward
90 degrees turn whilst stationary
180 Degree turn whilst stationary

This has always been interpreted that as long as the move they make doesn't break the rules above nor get the unit any closer to any enemy within 12MU its OK. If the unit has to break any of those constrictions it needs a CMT. So as long as the move is parallel its not breaking the restrictions. This is because troops cannot turn through 180 and move, unless outside 6MU and with a general so doing a march move. Therefore a turn through 180 alone that does not bring the unit closer is considered fine. Of course if the unit footprint is not a rectangle, ie. some rear bases are lost then a turn under some circumstances would bring the new front rank base closer to an enemy so even that would require a CMT.

Say the rear right musket base on a P&S unit was lost. There was an enemy on the right of the unit and slightly to its rear, if it turns the new front rank base (placed where the dead one was) would now make the unit closer to that enemy than it was before so would require a CMT. (See below Unit is facing up the page. E is the enemy unit.

MPM
MP
------------EE
------------EE

Now facing down the page, the front rank M is now closer to the enemy than the unit was before.

MP
MPM
-----------EE
-----------EE

Which also means once a unit turns and is moving away, to turn back again can be a problem if there are some losses so the back rank is not full.

Vespasian28
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:04 pm

Re: retiring when fragmented

Post by Vespasian28 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:17 pm

OK Ben, thanks for that

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