Notes of the Spanish Armies

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Montesa
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Notes of the Spanish Armies

Post by Montesa » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:47 pm

After receiving my books, these are my notes.

Guardias Viejas after 1515 don't exist as a effective military force. There were "Hombres de Armas" and "Caballos Ligeros" these were changed in the "Ordenanza of 1632" as "Caballos Corazas".
We must assume that in the list the "Caballos Corazas" can be considered also German Reiters mercenaries.
Arquebusier must say "Arcabuceros a caballo" (if you use spanish words...).
Also with the Ordenanza of 1632, the "Arcabuceros a caballo" changed the arquebus for the carbine and renamed as "Compañias Carabinas", "Carabinas", or "Carabineros".
In the armies lists the Arquebusiers have carbine then they must be "Carabinas".
It says that they existed and were used before 1635, but the true evidence is that they where created by order of the king at 1635 by D. Pedro de Santa Cecilia in Inspruck . It started to open 800 for its ranks and 3 years later is recruited 1100 more at Vitoria (Spain) that went later to Catalonia. They were armed with arquebus (in the lists says muskets).
They were not known in Low Countries before 1673, where it was created at Brussels with 1100 ranks.
Why can there be Dragoons in Flandes?
The formation of the tercios, the shot were roughly half muskets and the other half were arquebus.
Also I recommend highly to read Revolt of the Catalans of Elliott, about political and social situation of Catalonia of the period (is not very useful for military questions but yes to get some interesting military aspects) to who has written the text of Thirty Year's War Peninsular spanish.
Use the adjective "agressive" (used a lot by the catalan nationalism) to a intent of reform of the Conde-Duque, at a moment of crisis of manpower,
financial, social and a nearby war against France is a mishap to the reality. Both sides (not only el Conde-Duque) were guilty for the break of the revolt.
At Catalonia there were a lot of "bandolerismo" (banditry) and struggle between the "Cadells" and the "Nyerros" (something like the Montescos and Capuletos or a light version of the Guelphs and Ghibellines)
And most of the "Miquelets" (called themselves as Companyia d'Almogavers) were bandits, reason that they were dissolved in 1642 or 1652 (two different sources) because they also dedicated to the pillage.
Could the person who wrote the list (from what source), say me why they were armed with muskets?
There was really a widespread of any type of firearms with a type of flintlock called pany català, pany miquelet, llave española o de patilla. (catalan, miquelet, spanish or sidebroad locks).
In the book the armies list, it says that catalans started to defect from the french side after 1652, and more truly they did at early stage of the revolt the
catalans started to change sides with the fall of the Conde-Duque in 1643.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:54 pm

I'll leave the rest of your post to our Spanish list contributors - assuming they are reading the forum - but will tackle this comment:
The formation of the tercios, the shot were roughly half muskets and the other half were arquebus.
This is true, however, in order to avoid players exploiting things (and they will find a way) we classify such mixtures as per this explanation in the Dutch list:
The shot component of the foot regiments were initially armed with a mixture of arquebus and muskets, with the latter replacing the former over time. We give battle groups the capability of the majority weapon type.
Of course exactly what is "the majority weapon type" at any date is a subjective, and sometime arbitrary, choice, however, we choose the one that we feel gives the correct results in historical matchups.
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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Montesa
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Post by Montesa » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:36 pm

[
The formation of the tercios, the shot were roughly half muskets and the other half were arquebus.
This is true, however, in order to avoid players exploiting things (and they will find a way) we classify such mixtures as per this explanation in the Dutch list:
The shot component of the foot regiments were initially armed with a mixture of arquebus and muskets, with the latter replacing the former over time. We give battle groups the capability of the majority weapon type.
No problem with this, I had read the rules and I don´t discuss it, only is information for the reader. If the reader wants to do a Tercio,, so this manner knows what type of figures to use, as the pikemen, the first lines have breastplates, and the others don't use them. So the first ones were named "Corseletes" and the second "Picas secas" (dry pikes).
What I forget to say is that after the ordenanza of 1632 officially there were more arquebus than muskets in each Tercio.

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Post by timmy1 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:35 pm

Montesa

Very interesting to me. I need to read this very carefully.

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Post by robertthebruce » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:43 pm

Guardias Viejas after 1515 don't exist as a effective military force. There were "Hombres de Armas" and "Caballos Ligeros" these were changed in the "Ordenanza of 1632" as "Caballos Corazas".

Guardias of Castilla were created in 1494, at the begining, this corp was a unit of men at arms and Jinetes riding at "the morisca".

It´s not true that the unit don´t exit after 1515, this unit change their troops with time but the name stuck.

For example, in a document of 1530 the army rooster is described:

"Heavy horse, 24 companies of the Guardias of Castilla with 37 men at arms each, 1 trumpet, 1 armourer and 1 farrier. Light horse, divided in Celadas and Arquebusiers"

This is preserved until 1643. Here we have in the review of the army of Extremadura:


"Cavalry: 6 companies of Guardias of Castilla, 16 officials and 125 mens"


We assume that this unit is not the same that the original one, but there is some army reviews in the Charles V and Philip II periods that suports the idea that some Heavy cavalry was used in battle under the name of Guardias of Castilla.



We must assume that in the list the "Caballos Corazas" can be considered also German Reiters mercenaries.
Arquebusier must say "Arcabuceros a caballo" (if you use spanish words...).
They are the same in the list.


Also with the Ordenanza of 1632, the "Arcabuceros a caballo" changed the arquebus for the carbine and renamed as "Compañias Carabinas", "Carabinas", or "Carabineros".

You are fully right, but we used the original texts, and there, they are knowed as arquebusiers, surely by tradition.
It says that they existed and were used before 1635, but the true evidence is that they where created by order of the king at 1635 by D. Pedro de Santa Cecilia in Inspruck . It started to open 800 for its ranks and 3 years later is recruited 1100 more at Vitoria (Spain) that went later to Catalonia. They were armed with arquebus (in the lists says muskets).

You are right again, they were created officially in 1635 as you says, but they were used before, armed with arquebus first and carabine later.



They were not known in Low Countries before 1673, where it was created at Brussels with 1100 ranks.
Why can there be Dragoons in Flandes?

Ok, the list don´t says specifically that there was Dragoos in Flanders before the two tercios of Dragoons (Tercio of Verloo 1674 and Tercio of Hartman 1676). But I admit that could be added a "Not in Flanders".





Use the adjective "agressive" (used a lot by the catalan nationalism) to a intent of reform of the Conde-Duque, at a moment of crisis of manpower,
financial, social and a nearby war against France is a mishap to the reality. Both sides (not only el Conde-Duque) were guilty for the break of the revolt.
At Catalonia there were a lot of "bandolerismo" (banditry) and struggle between the "Cadells" and the "Nyerros" (something like the Montescos and Capuletos or a light version of the Guelphs and Ghibellines)
And most of the "Miquelets" (called themselves as Companyia d'Almogavers) were bandits, reason that they were dissolved in 1642 or 1652 (two different sources) because they also dedicated to the pillage.
Could the person who wrote the list (from what source), say me why they were armed with muskets?
There was really a widespread of any type of firearms with a type of flintlock called pany català, pany miquelet, llave española o de patilla. (catalan, miquelet, spanish or sidebroad locks).
In the book the armies list, it says that catalans started to defect from the french side after 1652, and more truly they did at early stage of the revolt the
catalans started to change sides with the fall of the Conde-Duque in 1643.
Maybe, Xavi could can answer beeter than me this questions, I was born in Cadiz, I´m not an expert in Catalan Nationalism.


Thanks for your comments.


David

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Re: Notes of the Spanish Armies

Post by Gbrios » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:32 am

Montesa wrote: We must assume that in the list the "Caballos Corazas" can be considered also German Reiters mercenaries.
German Reiters was called in Spanish "Herreruelos". In Germany, principal Spain recruiting zone, they were also called "Swartzreiters" (black riders) due to their black armour. They used caracole formation. The name persist to describe a troop armed with pistols that fight unarmed. So I think, Arquebusiers must be called Herreruelos.

"Caballos corazas" or "Coraceros" (cuirassier) were not German, for example "Caballos corazas borgoñones" (Burgundians). They didn't use caracole formation.
Gonzo

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Post by madaxeman » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:26 pm

I'll need to get onto setting up a FoG renaissance wiki this weekend methinks.....
http://www.madaxeman.com
Become a fan of Madaxeman on Facebook at Madaxeman.com's Facebook Page.

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Post by Gbrios » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:52 pm

madaxeman wrote:I'll need to get onto setting up a FoG renaissance wiki this weekend methinks.....
If you need help... :roll:
Gonzo

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http://espadadesahagun.blogspot.com (Version en español)

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Post by Montesa » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:51 am

More to say:
Firstly I don't say that "Guardias Viejas" that it don't exist after
1515, I mean that it was to tiny to be a effective military force.
As were the "Lanzas de cuantia de Andalucia y Murcia" were to small to consider them as a military force, this cavalry was
used for coast defense from the moors.
And as you say it was a unit with a combination of Hombres de armas (men at arms
) Caballos Ligeros and Arcabuceros a caballo (mounted arquebusiers). It was as a Guard de Corps of the monarchs.
And the Guardias Viejas didn't have been in Flandes nor Italy.
In the the different ordennances it distinguish the different types of Cavalry.
Yes, the companies of the Men at arms were 37, but the Caballos ligeros or celadas and Arcabuceros a caballo were 50 in each company.
So 24 companies of 37-50 men does 1200 men as much.
There is a rooster of the Ordennance of 1525 that says that the Imperial army has 580 Gente de Armes (Men at arms) and 4460 Caballos ligeros.
well, if you use Spanish words Guardias Viejas, Caballos Corazas (and in other lists with its language Kuirassiere), better to use Arcabuceros a caballo.
And Dragoon would be Dragón.
About the carabinas, if that your idea not calling them as what they were (as the ordennance), I think it is a mistake calling them arquebusier as a "tradition".
Bad excuse.
More to say:
Firstly I don't say that "Guardias Viejas" that it don't exist after
1515, I mean that it was to tiny to be a effective military force.
As were the "Lanzas de cuantia de Andalucia y Murcia" were to small to consider them as a military force, this cavalry was
used for coast defense from the moors.
And as you say it was a unit with a combination of Hombres de armas (men at arms
) Caballos Ligeros and Arcabuceros a caballo (mounted arquebusiers). It was as a Guard de Corps of the monarchs.
And the Guardias Viejas didn't have been in Flandes nor Italy.
In the the different ordennances it distinguish the different types of Cavalry.
Yes, the companies of the Men at arms were 37, but the Caballos ligeros or celadas and Arcabuceros a caballo were 50 in each company.
So 24 companies of 37-50 (later 45) men does 1200 men as much.
There is a rooster of the Ordennance of 1525 that says that the Imperial army has 580 Gente de Armes (Men at arms) and 4460 Caballos ligeros.
well, if you use Spanish words Guardias Viejas, Caballos Corazas (and in other lists with its language Kuirassiere), better to use Arcabuceros a caballo.
And Dragoon would be Dragón.

At this manner we see the changes of the spanish cavalry. How the companies of the arquebusier get carbine (and renamed) and let its arquebus to the Dragoons.
What year were the dragoons armed with carbine???
But the carbine weren't muskets as the list says.
About the Miquelets, they used more the arquebus than muskets and also it was a tiny force.(maybe there had been a cofusion about the miquelets of
the War of the Spanish Sucession).
And I'm trying to know which year were really disbanded (I would bid for 1942).
David, I live at Barcelona, and I know what I'm talking when it is about catalan nationalism.
Ah, sorry, I lied, I don't think that both sides were guilty, I think that it were la Diputació (catalan parlament of that moment) had most of all the fault.

thanks for your comments, but I'm worried about the second army list book.

Gbios: thanks gbios, And no, the arquebusier weren´t Herreruelos because the herreruelos use one pistol and a sword, and were also called "pistoletes", and they were considered different in the Ordenanzas.
The "horns" of the Tercios were called "mangas" (sleeves) as was well written by Ian Heath (Armies of the 16th Century).

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Post by robertthebruce » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:34 pm

About the Guardias of Castilla, I only can say that they appears under this name and armed as heavy cavalry in several army reviews in XVI century and early XVII. I think that it´s not critical what name to use, for example, in the Caroline list are called "Spanish men at Arms", because the most of times in this period, they appears in Spanish armies in foreing lands.

As you can see in the list, the Guardias viejas aren´t compulsory in any army.


For my experience, lot of militar units are called in diferent ways by different sources, this happens not only in Renaissance, is typical in Ancient periods too, and in fact, I´m not I am not prepared to enter in a byzantine discussion about how to name certain units. Richard and Nick are the authors, and ussually they calls the exclusive units in the original language, and the common ones in English, don´t forget that the books are wrote in English. I think it is a valid criterion, and I do the same when I´m writting the lists.


We have evidences of muskets in the army of Duke of Flanders in 1567, but surely only a initial prototypes. And the most of represetation of the Dragoons show a very long "Arquebus o Carbine", for example:

Image
From the picture collection of Vinkhuizen (NY).

The Dragoons ussualy dismounted to fire, it´s not a madness thinking that they need a long range gun, some texts and pictures support it.



I must not forget to say something; not all the arquebus were the same from the begining of the this period, this gun were very rudimentary in the early XVI, and it evolves in the middle XVI. To represent it in the game, we can´t use two or more kinds of arquebus in the rules. In some units, the way of represent higher quality arquebus, is arm them with Carbine, to get a realistic effect under the rules. And the mounted arqebus were a few different that the foot ones, were shorter and more easy to handling.


thanks for your comments, but I'm worried about the second army list book.

Don´t worry, I didn´t write this list, and to be honest I can´t talk about it properly, as I said I don´t know much about the Catalan Nationlism and internal conflicts. I prefer the early period, maybe because I have Gonzalo of Cordova at 800m from my house :)

Salutacions als nois de alpha ares.

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Post by timmy1 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Warning, English Humour Alert

'maybe because I have Gonzalo of Cordova at 800m from my house'

Is that because of the smell (given he has been dead 500 years or so)?

I do envy you.

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Post by robertthebruce » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:09 pm

:D :D In fact, I doubt there is much of him there, the French I dug up his grave in 1812, and threw his bones to the dogs.


The Napoleon troops had a great time in Granada. I think that the stone inscription in the church didn´t like them, it says:


"Gonzalo de Córdova, great Spaniard, French and Italian Terror" :lol:

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Post by Montesa » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:15 am

Guardias Viejas was a unit of three different type of cavalries so they can't be gendarmes and lancers, etc. The army lists of Newbury rules and DBR are better differring the types of cavalries.

"Volviendo sobre las tropas de Caballeria nacionales existentes en el siglo XVI, es preciso señalar que ni las Guardias Viejas de Castilla ni los Cuantiosos de Andalucia, o algún otro grupode jinetes reducidos efectivos y empírica organización, pueden ser considerados como fuerzas regulares de un ejercito tipo permanente y bien estructurado.
Por tanto la verdadera Caballeria organica y nacional de aquel tiempo, quedaba reducida a dos clases de formaciones articuladas en compañias, a saber Hombres de Armas y Caballos Ligeros" - Sintesis Historica de la Caballeria Española J. de Sotto Montes about the GV after 1515.
The next time, use this books: Historia Orgánica de las Armas de Infanteria y Caballeria (Vol. III and IV) - Serafín María de Sotto, Conde de Clonard and
if you don't have access use this book (the best book that I have found about the Spanish Cavalry). Sintesis Historica de la Caballeria Española J. de Sotto Montes.
(also has include the texts of George Basta, in the use of the Lanzas and the Caballos Corazas, also mentions Mendoza and Eguilez).
There is good books about the tercios but nearly no book about the cavalry in that period

That picture don't says nothing, from what book is get by Vinkhuizen NYPL Digital Gallery?.
A Dragoon (Dragon), its equipment was in 1635:
-Jubon con brahones, calzas acuchilladas con forros y ribetes encarnados; sombrero chambergo (hat) de fieltro blanco con pluma roja; coleto blanco y bota de becerro; guantes de manopla.
-Espada de cazoleta y arcabuz corto (short arquebus), y además llevaban consigo mazo y un piquete para amarrar el caballo durante su combate a pie.
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigi ... um=&pos=18
Dragon in 1674
-Justa-cor o casaca chamberga y grugüescos de paño amarillo, sombrero fieltro blanco (hat), guantes de manopla y bota de campaña.
-Espada, arcabuz largo (long arquebus), pistola de arzón; mazo y piquete para amarrar su cabalgadura.
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigi ... um=&pos=31
They don't have helmets and again, they don´t use muskets. And in the game the musket aren't the same as arquebus, And if you want to justify a ahistorical list, its your problem, but you makes then the lists sucks.

Gbios: I rectify, we must assume that all types of cavalries include German mercenaries. Must we?

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Post by robertthebruce » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:54 am

if you want to justify a ahistorical list, its your problem, but you makes then the lists sucks.
End Thread for me.

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Post by Montesa » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:42 pm

robertthebruce wrote:
if you want to justify a ahistorical list, its your problem, but you makes then the lists sucks.
End Thread for me.
As you want.

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