Tercios Viejos

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Jhykronos
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Tercios Viejos

Post by Jhykronos » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:19 am

So exactly which Tercios in the Later Imperial Spanish deserve the Elite classification? I've got too many secondary sources here using the term "Tercios Viejos" as something of a general descriptor for all native Tercios Espanols.

Montesa
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Re: Tercios Viejos

Post by Montesa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:16 pm

Jhykronos wrote:So exactly which Tercios in the Later Imperial Spanish deserve the Elite classification? I've got too many secondary sources here using the term "Tercios Viejos" as something of a general descriptor for all native Tercios Espanols.
Tercios Viejos were tercios composed mostly by veteran soldiers and the unit has existed a time ago. The first Tercio Viejo that existed was from Lombardy. The Tercios Viejos were mostly Italians or Spanish. It was considered by the commanders, the spanish the best soldiers, then the italians and the less of all los tercios de las naciones (nations) the Wallons (but with the time they were better appreciated). But for my personal opinion the worst troops were the Catalans because at the siege of Salces (1639) they (there were two Tercios) defected from a 50% to a 75% of its ranks.

Jhykronos
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Re: Tercios Viejos

Post by Jhykronos » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:08 am

Montesa wrote:Tercios Viejos were tercios composed mostly by veteran soldiers and the unit has existed a time ago. The first Tercio Viejo that existed was from Lombardy. The Tercios Viejos were mostly Italians or Spanish. It was considered by the commanders, the spanish the best soldiers, then the italians and the less of all los tercios de las naciones (nations) the Wallons (but with the time they were better appreciated). But for my personal opinion the worst troops were the Catalans because at the siege of Salces (1639) they (there were two Tercios) defected from a 50% to a 75% of its ranks.
Yeah, I've got that the oldest 4, (Lombardy, as you said, Sicily, Naples, and Brabant) are always referred to as Tercios Viejos. Do any of the others qualify? How old does a Tercio have to be to get the "Viejo" label and be classified as Elite in this game? Do, say, Toralto and Idiaquez's tercios at Nordlingen count, or are they not Viejo enough?

Aryaman
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Post by Aryaman » Sat May 07, 2011 12:53 pm

Tercios (at least until early XVII century) were not like the regiments of other countries in that they were not organical units, but rather command posts.
Regiments in this period were usually recruited by Noblemen under contract from the King, the commander selected his own officials, usually relatives.

In Spain that was different, the organical unit was the company, recruited independently (each captain received the command and the right to recruit from the King directly). Then companies were attached to Tercios, that worked as HQs. The commander of every Tercio was also directly awarded by the King.
Companies could be attached to or detached from different tercios. They were rather like combat brigades, assembled for especific campaigns/missions.
So, answering your question, a Tercio viejo was one that could trace his HQs back to the old tercios in Italy, but that was somewhat artificial. In reality, a Tercio viejo was one composed of veteran companies. Besides that they were also well supplied with particulares.
Fuenclara and Idiaquez were certainly Tercios Viejos, especially Idiaquez had a lot of particulares in his ranks. Usually, those tercios mobilized for a campaign were veterans, while the green companies were attached to Tercios in garrison mission, although sometimes urgent requirements meant they had to be mobilized as well

robertthebruce
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Post by robertthebruce » Sat May 07, 2011 1:59 pm

Aryaman wrote:Tercios (at least until early XVII century) were not like the regiments of other countries in that they were not organical units, but rather command posts.
Regiments in this period were usually recruited by Noblemen under contract from the King, the commander selected his own officials, usually relatives.

In Spain that was different, the organical unit was the company, recruited independently (each captain received the command and the right to recruit from the King directly). Then companies were attached to Tercios, that worked as HQs. The commander of every Tercio was also directly awarded by the King.
Companies could be attached to or detached from different tercios. They were rather like combat brigades, assembled for especific campaigns/missions.
So, answering your question, a Tercio viejo was one that could trace his HQs back to the old tercios in Italy, but that was somewhat artificial. In reality, a Tercio viejo was one composed of veteran companies. Besides that they were also well supplied with particulares.
Fuenclara and Idiaquez were certainly Tercios Viejos, especially Idiaquez had a lot of particulares in his ranks. Usually, those tercios mobilized for a campaign were veterans, while the green companies were attached to Tercios in garrison mission, although sometimes urgent requirements meant they had to be mobilized as well

Correct.


The Spanish have a habit of calling the same way different things and vice versa :)

In this case, we call "Tercios Viejos" at the first 4 Tercios created in Italy in early XVI, and the Veteran Tercios who fought later in the Imperial army.


I think nobody doubts that Veteran Tercios as Espínola, Idiaquez, Fuenclara or Torralto can be considered "Tercios Viejos"

Jhykronos
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Post by Jhykronos » Sun May 08, 2011 5:14 am

robertthebruce wrote: The Spanish have a habit of calling the same way different things and vice versa :)
Heh, I don't know, it can't be any more confusing than we English speakers mangling the terminology further, by calling anything resembling a Spanish Escuadron in deep field square formation a "Tercio".

Jhykronos
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Post by Jhykronos » Sun May 08, 2011 5:21 am

A little topic drift here, but are the "foreign regiments" in this list mostly supposed to be German? I ask because it seems odd they'd be using Dutch style 6-stand battalions during the early period of this list, when most contemporary 30YW Germans are using bigger units than the Spanish at that point.

Aryaman
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Post by Aryaman » Sun May 08, 2011 4:52 pm

Jhykronos wrote:
robertthebruce wrote: The Spanish have a habit of calling the same way different things and vice versa :)
Heh, I don't know, it can't be any more confusing than we English speakers mangling the terminology further, by calling anything resembling a Spanish Escuadron in deep field square formation a "Tercio".
Not only English, at the time almost everyone called those formations "Tertia" latinizing the Spanish Tercio, except the Spaniards themselves, they called them Escuadrones, as you wrote.

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