Early Swedes ... Cannot Be Beat

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mbsparta
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Early Swedes ... Cannot Be Beat

Post by mbsparta »

We started out our FoG-R adventure with my ECW armies, an Ottoman army and a partialy finished Spanish-Low-Countries army. Since then one player has built a ECW Montrose army and another his very own Swedish Early TYW army.

Mr Gustav has never lost a game yet with his army. He has beaten every concoction of ECW armies, Scots armies and even the NMA. He has beaten German TYW armies too. He rarely looses more than a BG or 2. Our normal game is 650 points (28mm) on a 6x4 table. This past Saturday he beat my NMA (including killing Cromwell) ... and beat is a kind word. When my army was defeated he had lost 2 .... yes 2 stands. Not BGs ... stands.

He does know his army well. He deploys well. But he also knows his horse is better than anything we can field. And his salvo foot are seldom ever beaten.

Any thoughts on how to beat a 650 point army of Early Swedes using ECW or similar armies would be greatly appreciated. He is getting a little too smug ...

Cromwell, Lord Protector
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Post by johngl »

I sympathise, especially as I'm busy painting the NMA as my first 25mm FoGR army! But surely a 650 point Gustavian army is very small... you must have lots more firepower, and your cavalry is pretty good (no commanded shot is a bummer, though). I'm planning a 700 point army, as that seems to be the standard over here, and will have 6 average foot regiments, 3 superior cavalry regiments, 1 firelock regiment, some dragoons and 2 light guns - the Swedes should have a lot fewer troops.

I dropped in to watch some of the games at Warfare today and saw Gustavus losing against Bornu - the Swedish cavalry was ridden over by camel warriors. I didn't see the end of the game, so the Swedes might have turned it round, but perhaps camels are the answer. Not a lot of help to Cromwell and Fairfax, of course.
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Post by Scrumpy »

I fought a 30yw Swede at Fall in with Early 17th C French. The trick is shoot them down before they close too close, then hope you can hold them in impact, after that it is an even fight.

Most armies should be bigger than them, and use that to your advantage, hit him with 2-1 or 3-2 in bg on a firefight to disrupte him before he gets in to charge.
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Post by hazelbark »

I can't speak to 25mm as much but in 15mm one of the tactics is to wheel so the swedish brigades can't hit you full on. 1 file to 1 file at impact reduces a lot of the dangers of double POA. THen you are evens.

Command out the shot. Get a 4 base pike unit and send it in. It will be only down 1 POA at imapct and then up after that. When you command out the shot you can go into terrain and be quite a nussiance on the flank of anyone.

I have found the swedes need to be very careful to coordinate there foot and mounted arms. As you can overwhelm the mounted if the swedes aren't careful.

Fortifications and artillery can shoot up and then tie up a lot of swedes.

None of these are exceptional but all hinder the swedes.

There are also the french with impact foot.
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Post by madaxeman »

Other tactics:

- Lots of rough/uneven terrain. Slows down the Swedes, lets you get more shots in at them as they struggle across it.
- Lots of Superior Heavily Armoured Cuirassiers with a cheap unit for rear support. They can hold up at impact, then will be ahead in melee
- Any big units of foote with rear support - same principle,but evens in melee,win by attrition.
- Lots of artillery aimed at the horse, sit back with your army and let him attack.
- Commanded Shotte - makes your horse as good as his
- A huge, wide army. Accept you will probably lose some units to the Salvo foote, whew up the rest with standard pike and shotte
- All-shotte armies, esp with Batallion Gunnes. As long as you don't get tempted to manoeuvre you will get 2 rounds of at least 6 or 7 dice at close range and 2 x 3 dice at long range. That should be 2-3 bases off the salvo foote before they hit- at least half way to breaking.*


Nearly all these learnt this weekend.... with my Swedes !

* Remember that march moves end OUTSIDE 6 inches. So if you sit still, any Swedes marching up to you and stopping outside musket range will need to make 3 further moves in order to hit you - which is 4 rounds of shooting.
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hazelbark
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Post by hazelbark »

madaxeman wrote: * Remember that march moves end OUTSIDE 6 inches. So if you sit still, any Swedes marching up to you and stopping outside musket range will need to make 3 further moves in order to hit you - which is 4 rounds of shooting.
This is often played wrong by LOTS of players. Particularly those who came from rules with a habit of being able to move to__. Also overlooked by players who have not noted what is in the glossary.
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Post by footslogger »

hazelbark wrote:I can't speak to 25mm as much but in 15mm one of the tactics is to wheel so the swedish brigades can't hit you full on. 1 file to 1 file at impact reduces a lot of the dangers of double POA. THen you are evens.
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Post by footslogger »

Better foot and better mounted should equate to a much smaller army. Surround and shoot up would be a useful strategy I'd think. Dan is correct that the Swedes need carefully to coordinate their foot and mounted components.

I've played as Early TYW Swedes a couple of times in 25 at 650 but on a larger table. I was beaten by a Royalist army with much better cav (just overwhelmed me). My foot beat his but each swedish brigade could only take out one enemy foot unit and the battle was lost before they could turn on something else. I was beaten by some Scots concoction with more guns than I could count.

One other note, Swedish brigades with regimental guns will give it to 4/2 foot at long range. The 4/2 foot will have to close or get shot up and then the Swedes can charge. This wasn't obvious to me until I started using them.
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Post by timmy1 »

It took me a while to understand that the key to the Swedish brigade is is what in the army is NOT Swedish brigade. Other than Swiss Keil nothing much wants to fight it head on. so they tend to pound away with artillery or take out your flanks. If you stand they don't want to assault it frontally so will pound you with artillery. If you do they will try to cave in the flanks. Key is getting a balance so your flanks are strong enough to last so that the Brigade does not get hit in the flank playing the Reg Gun twostep at long range.
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Post by grahambriggs »

I found the cheap native auxiliaries (impact foot, sword) in my Colonial Spanish hold up reasonably well against the Swedish brigades
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Post by timmy1 »

Interesting. Not faced such troop type. Must run the odds sometime. I would have expected the Swedes to break them with CTs from the shooting but maybe that's where I have the odds wrong...
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Post by grahambriggs »

timmy1 wrote:Interesting. Not faced such troop type. Must run the odds sometime. I would have expected the Swedes to break them with CTs from the shooting but maybe that's where I have the odds wrong...
Well, they're in 8s, with rear support and a general. And the salvo foot don't shoot far...
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Post by timmy1 »

I see. Even with a Reg Gun that is tough. Needs all 3 shots to hit just to cause a CT and they pass on a 5 or better. Impact favours the Salvo but after that the Sword really swings it. I will have to see if I can borrow some Tupi...
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Post by jonphilp »

From our FOGR games at the club the early TYW Swedish army has had mixed success. Against early German Catholic TYW it has lost as the early/late tercios held up the infantry brigades long enough for the German cavalry to claim both flanks and attack the Swedish infantry from the Rear. Later German TYW armies (similar to ECW) are less resiliant to the Swedish salvo attack and need to disrupt/destroy the Swedish Brigades by fire power before they get into Salvo range. Musket only formations have been quite effective in this role as we have found that the "standard" battlegroup of 4 musket/2 pike has little chance agaist the Swedish brigades once they close in. The Swedish general has been finding it difficult to get a balanced force that can protecct the flanks of hiss Swedish brigades. When he gets it right this will be an ideal army for his aggressive style of play. From his opponents side you need maximum horse, firepower and good terrain. Enjoy your game and may your artillery dice roll well.
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Post by Agesilaus »

As someone who is assembling an early Swedish army I find this thread very encouraging :) Can you please post the composition of this unbeatable Swedish army?

But please, can we cut down on the amount of advice on how to beat Swedes? I find my local opponents hard nough to beat already!
mbsparta
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Post by mbsparta »

Speaking of the evil Gustav army list; I don't have his list and he tweeks it from time to time but it is usually something like this:

Gustav: GC
2x TC
1 Swedish Cavalry (superior)
1x Finnish Cavalry (superior)
1x German Kuirassier (superior)
1x Veteran Foot (superior)
2x Other Foot (average)
1x Medium Artillery
1x Commanded Shot

Sometimes he takes the Finnish Cavalry as elite and downgrades his Swedes. Sometimes more Commanded Shot or no superior Foot. I may have some of the superior-average numbers wrong but you get the idea. This is not much smaller than most ECW army concoctions and just a bit smaller than a NMA. We all enjoy the challange of trying to find a weakness in his army. But it just isn't there unless he makes a mistake or rolls poorly. While an interesting tactic, I would never turn a BG to cheat the impact rule. Not intentionaly. Just they way I play. We are playing again the week after New-Years. I am thinking of trying some Royalists and see if Rupert can have any luck with him. I do like the idea of commanding-out the shot and trying a BG of all pike. We rarely ever to that. It might pose an interesting challange to him.

Mike B
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Post by deadtorius »

The only thing I can think of off hand but have not tried yet is to go with FF's. It will force him to stop and take two more turns of shooting at close range (1 MU out) before he can charge you. I have faced the Swedes as allies in our 30YW German Catholics vs German Protestant games. Not a full army of them but still I have had my tercio hit by 2 such units at once, that hurts :shock:
So far I have had little luck taking out the Swedes, I try to stay back and take out the other German forces instead as they die easier. It does not help that my opponent is uber lucky with making death rolls.
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Post by Blathergut »

:twisted: ehehehehe :twisted:
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Post by Agesilaus »

Mike

Jokes aside, thanks for posting the Gustav list and its rough composition. Obviously it has very high quality cavalry and infantry. But surely there are some weaknesses. Two things struck me about it straight away (I admit I am still an FOG R novice and am still learning tactics):

1. Shooting - with such expensive troops he won't have much artillery apart from the regimental guns. Can you sit back and pound him with more guns? Likewise his salvo shot are not great at shooting. Can you angle your infantry brigades defensively in a sawtooth pattern (Agincourt style) to maximise your shooting numbers as he closes to attack you?

2. Rough terrain - he doesn't have many rough terrain troops and you don't mention dragoons. I am finding so far that terrain choice is almost as tactically important as deployment and positioning of generals. Do you use much terrain in your games? If you have more dragoons and/or commanded shot you can pretty confidently put as many terrain pieces on the battlefield as possible. The Swede will be reluctant to go into it.
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Post by deadtorius »

keep in mind that depending on die rolls he might be moving it and will likely try to keep an open path so his apocalyptic Swedes can carry on. I have lost hills too often that way so don't take gentle hills anymore.

If his Swedes are armoured, then you take a - for shooting at long range. I have never had much luck in trying to shoot Blatherguts Swedes myself.

Perhaps you need loaded dice that keep rolling 6's so you can cause more casualties than he can handle :wink: Just call them the Swedish Equalizer dice and don't use them against anyone else.
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