Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

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WuZhuiQiu
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Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by WuZhuiQiu » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:25 pm

While leafing through the FoGR army lists that I acquired recently, I was disappointed, but not surprised (given DBx), to see that Japanese nagae-yari are treated as spear, and not as pike. Brian Bradford, for one, has suggested that nagae-yari may have been efficiently pike-like, even though they may not have been wielded in deep formations.

On the other hand, there would seem to be all manner of special rules in FoGR so that Mapuche can use pike in shallow formations.

Might the Mapuche pike rules be suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?


Thanks.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:22 am

WuZhuiQiu wrote:While leafing through the FoGR army lists that I acquired recently, I was disappointed, but not surprised (given DBx), to see that Japanese nagae-yari are treated as spear, and not as pike. Brian Bradford, for one, has suggested that nagae-yari may have been efficiently pike-like, even though they may not have been wielded in deep formations.

On the other hand, there would seem to be all manner of special rules in FoGR so that Mapuche can use pike in shallow formations.

Might the Mapuche pike rules be suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?


Thanks.
I think the big problem here is that the Pike was used as a weapon differently to the Yari. The Yari (despite its length) was a weapon that was used as cut and thrust, even thought it was MOSTLY thrust. It didn't follow the 'push of pike' technique'. Formations of Ashigaru with Yari would not be extremely deep (as per Swiss/Landsknecht - I cannot comment on Mapuche).

I'm really unable to comment on the mixed formations of Tercios and later pike and shot, so will leave that for others, but as the Ashigaru are not in a mixed formation I think you'd have to equate how people would use the Ashigaru to how people use Swiss, and this would not be realistic formation usage.

Don't get me wrong - I love the Japanese and am disappointed I can't seem to see how to use Samurai in both FoG:AM and FoG:R, but that doesn't mean that the rules writers have got it wrong - I think they've got it right - it's just that the Japanese really only fought themselves. Yeah they did some expeditionary stuff into Korea and had 3 guys (only 1 on horseback)* managing to land in Japan during the Mongol invasion, but reality is that they only fought themselves.

* = this asterisk is by way of a disclaimer to say that I know full well that more than three guys managed to land during the first and second Mongol invasion, BUT it was more a hyperbolic indication of the size of the battles that resulted.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by WuZhuiQiu » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:35 am

Thanks! However, the question is about using the special rules from the Mapuche army list for Japanese nagae-yari. It may be best to check the Mapuche rules in Cities of Gold first.

As for the Japanese fighting themselves, that is what I'd prefer to game, but where the Japanese are not represented as "Englishmen in yaori" or as "English longbowmen ...[with]... sashimonos", as an expert on Samurai warfare had once posted on TMP.

Now that you mention it, mixed formations is another issue, but I'll leave that for another thread on another day...

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:30 am

WuZhuiQiu wrote:Thanks! However, the question is about using the special rules from the Mapuche army list for Japanese nagae-yari. It may be best to check the Mapuche rules in Cities of Gold first.

As for the Japanese fighting themselves, that is what I'd prefer to game, but where the Japanese are not represented as "Englishmen in yaori" or as "English longbowmen ...[with]... sashimonos", as an expert on Samurai warfare had once posted on TMP.

Now that you mention it, mixed formations is another issue, but I'll leave that for another thread on another day...
Well, I don't have the Cities of Gold, so can't comment, and as it would only be a few lines, maybe you can post it here so people who don't have the boook CAN comment?

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by quackstheking » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:32 am

Having used Samurai (very successfully!) at a UK competition, I would prefer to take them as spear as against pike!

Don

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:46 am

quackstheking wrote:Having used Samurai (very successfully!) at a UK competition, I would prefer to take them as spear as against pike!

Don
I'd be interested in your list Don, if you don't mind giving it to me.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by timmy1 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:53 am

My TYW Swedes also got a mauling at the hands of Samurai at Britcon 2011...

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by WuZhuiQiu » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:50 pm

ravenflight wrote: Well, I don't have the Cities of Gold, so can't comment, and as it would only be a few lines, maybe you can post it here so people who don't have the boook CAN comment?
Sorry, being new here, I was unsure about the forum policy on IP and quoting rules.

Regardless, I am hoping to find a way of employing FoGR, perhaps with some house rules, for Japanese vs. Japanese games with a "Japanese" period flavour. I'm not interested in tournaments, and don't care about relative performance vs. ahistorical opponents.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by ravenflight » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:46 pm

WuZhuiQiu wrote:Sorry, being new here, I was unsure about the forum policy on IP and quoting.
A reasonable caution. I've quoted sections out of both the rule book and army lists. I think if it's obvious that you're doing it to cheat people buying the book then Slitherine will step in, but if it's a rules clarification/question... well... so far nothing has happened to me.

For example i quoted the section on 'being in Spain' to raise a question on my army.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:42 am

I have played in tournaments both against and with the Japanese.

They are one of the more effective armies in the lists in open tournament, and have done well in several tournaments.

They struggle against the very best western foot (Swiss, Superior Early TYW Swedes) but pretty much roll over any lesser foot.

Tips:

Go for the earlier army without many (any) arquebusiers. Use as many samurai as possible. Use them in BGs of 8. (More resilient and more likely to get a ++ overlap). Have them heavily armoured (more chance against armoured pike keils and better against enemy mounted). Attack rapidly. Show no mercy.

Use the Elite Hatamoto Determined Foot on the end of your line vs enemy mounted. (Start with them in reserve behind the end of your infantry line, but don't be afraid to move them into the 12" flank zone).

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by quackstheking » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:04 pm

The good doctor RBS has it spot on! I did my Samurai in 6's though to increase the BG count. As they went forward virtually in a line anyway, by the time they got into contact there was always overlaps at ++! The Hatamoto's are really scary for most opponents, they can manoeuvre well as Elite Determined Foot and are easily able to face off most cavalry.

I also found using a GC really useful to bolster morale and help the warriors pass any CMT's they were required to take, especially to charge cavalry and recover cohesion. At warfare, in 3 games I was able to bring back units from rout much to my opponents annoyance.

Finally remember that you can put a GC with a unit and not fight in the front rank to help with any CT's that require passing.

Last thought, as warriors the Japanese are able to move 4" through rough terrain without dis ordering and 3" in difficult, so get as much rough and difficult down as possible!

Don

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by WuZhuiQiu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:05 pm

From memory, the Mapuche pike are limited to a maximum depth of two ranks. That seems to be the essential special rule. How about making nagae-yari "pike", but with the same depth constraint?

Again, I'm not interested in tournaments nor in ahistorical matches. Judging from the responses thus far, however, it looks as though FoGR may not be the right ruleset for me...

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:08 pm

WuZhuiQiu wrote:From memory, the Mapuche pike are limited to a maximum depth of two ranks. That seems to be the essential special rule. How about making nagae-yari "pike", but with the same depth constraint?

Again, I'm not interested in tournaments nor in ahistorical matches. Judging from the responses thus far, however, it looks as though FoGR may not be the right ruleset for me...
Also from memory (I did the basic research for the Southern Mapuche, RBS did the special rule for the 'pike'). I think you're right the Mapuche get to count as 'pike' but only count the first two ranks. Hence they do not fight as well as European pikes but should be a little more resilient against mounted than warriors armed with, say, light spear.

Southern Mapuche were one of the few locals that put up strong resistance to the conquistadors. In this they were aided by their long spears. Early on, they found that they could not stand in the open against Spanish horse. The spears were long enough for the job but there was no anit cavalry drill - e.g. they did not plant the butt in the ground. Nor were there materials as good as steel for the point. They soon learned to fight from bad going.

Later, when steel was available for the pike, they were no opponents around who made extensive use of the pike. Hence the kind of deep European pike formation in a push of pike seems unlikely.

If you are just doing historical battles, the mapuche rules might work nicely for the Nagae-Yari against mounted foes. However, I suggest you also look at the infantry foes - I think Spearmen would have an advantage when fighting them. Perhaps the answer is to use the mapuche pike rules againcst mountedbut count them as spear against foot?

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by daveallen » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:18 pm

There's no reason why you shouldn't adapt the rules any way you want. Especially if you're trying to get some period/regional flavour into your games.

However, there are a few problems using 2-deep pike blocks. One is that they don't get a POA v foot. Also, they give a POA to heavy weapons.

Spear are better than 2-deep pike in all circumstances. So I don't understand why you'd prefer them, unless the intention is to reduce their effectiveness...

Dave

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by WuZhuiQiu » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:35 am

Thanks, grahambriggs! About nagae-yari vs. spearmen, does that mean that pike do not have any inherent benefit in FoG(R) from their longer reach? Regardless, your suggested duality approach would be worth trying, although I'm not sure how their point cost should be adjusted.

Still, I believe that samurai may have continued to use ordinary yari, so a relative disadvantage to "pike"-wielding ashigaru against "spear"-yielding samurai (or even ashigaru) may not be such a bad thing, after all, so long as the points are reasonably balanced. Presumably, the yari ("spear") wielders would have been more skilled or better-trained in individual weapon handling than the nagae-yari ("pike") wielders.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:53 pm

timmy1 wrote:My TYW Swedes also got a mauling at the hands of Samurai at Britcon 2011...
But you forgot to bring many Superior Swedish brigades - IIRC your foot was mostly average, and many were foreign mercenaries.

(And my version wasn't much better - I tried to do without the Regimental Guns - big mistake).

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by grahambriggs » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:09 pm

WuZhuiQiu wrote:Thanks, grahambriggs! About nagae-yari vs. spearmen, does that mean that pike do not have any inherent benefit in FoG(R) from their longer reach? Regardless, your suggested duality approach would be worth trying, although I'm not sure how their point cost should be adjusted.

Still, I believe that samurai may have continued to use ordinary yari, so a relative disadvantage to "pike"-wielding ashigaru against "spear"-yielding samurai (or even ashigaru) may not be such a bad thing, after all, so long as the points are reasonably balanced. Presumably, the yari ("spear") wielders would have been more skilled or better-trained in individual weapon handling than the nagae-yari ("pike") wielders.
Pike do have an inherent benefit from longer reach normally. Three ranks of pike, for example, meane than spearmen do not get a POA. A fourth rank of pike provides the pike with a POA. So spearmen would be advantaged vs one or two ranks of pike, on a par with three ranks, and disadvantaged vs four or more ranks.

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Re: Mapuche pike rules: suitable for Japanese nagae-yari?

Post by ethan » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:42 pm

I don't think the Samurai would actually be better off as two rank only pike instead of spear given the way the PoAs work.

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