Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Moderators: Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

marshalney2000
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:14 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by marshalney2000 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:27 pm

Something else I had not considered under the insecure flank heading is the question of artillery. By definition artillery are classified as foot and as battle troops. As a result therefore if you start with your artillery within six inches of your table edge or indeed move it into a flank sector during the game then you would be hitting foot on sixes rather than fives. The same would apply from the other causes of insecure flanks such as overlapping mounted. Interesting!!
John

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by kevinj » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:42 pm

Check the POAs, the - for threatened flank applies against foot battle troops only.

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by kevinj » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:45 pm

Also yes, the - POA also applies to artillery who are too close to their base edge. Something you learn playing on 3' wide tables!

marshalney2000
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:14 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by marshalney2000 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:58 pm

Kevin are we talking at cross purposes re Dragoons. I think the situation is as follows:
Dragoons firing themselves when in a flank sector do not get a -1 POA as they are not Foot Battle Troops. They hit on fours.
Dragoons being fired at by a Foot Battle Unit in a flank sector are hit on fives as the Foot battle troops have a threatened flank.
The target being battle troops or not battle troops is irrelevant as the nearest rank of the target is any foot which is the criteria shown in the shooting POA's table for this -1 POA to be applied.
John

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by kevinj » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:03 pm

This will need to wait until i return to the UK and can check the book, but my memory is that the - for threatened flank only applies when shooting at foot battle troops.

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by shadowdragon » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:12 pm

Rules say target is any foot. No qualifier

marshalney2000
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:14 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by marshalney2000 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:15 pm

Kevin, it is any foot target according to the rules. I suspect you might be getting confused with artillery enfilade which only applies against battle troops.
Any way have a good holiday.
John

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:20 pm

Firstly, sorry OP for seeming to hijack the thread. This wasn't my intent, just happened to go that way.

Secondly, as I've said before, I haven't tested out my theoretical Danes, so I may be way out to lunch... but,

If you have sufficient troops in a flank sector I don't think the 5's vs 4's is a huge deal.

Take a look at 3 Dragoon bases vs 6 P&S bases (this assumes that you have sufficient troops that the 4th dragoon base is taking on another BG).

Dragoons have 3 dice going for 4's, so that is 1.5 hits. Sufficient for a cohesion test 50% of the time.
P&S have 5 dice going for 5's, so that's 1.6 hits. Assuming the BG of dragoons is 3 in size -or- the other bases in the overlapping shootout have a 2:6 chance of causing a hit with 2 dice, that means that the dragoons are testing every turn.

Commanded shot are a little more problematic as they put out more firepower per frontage, but test every time there is a hit.

Furthermore, the dragoons either have to run like cowardly currs -or- roll to stay in the fight if the P&S charge. The Commanded shot do not have this luxury, and so may be out there on their own.

If mounted are added to the mix to stop the P&S charging (well, it doesn't stop them, it just makes it a little more risky) then you are either taking away firepower -or- are adding reduced effect firepower (mounted shooting at foot needing 5's).

I don't think it's a awesome win for the Danes, but I don't think it's doom and gloom.

Remember that in my list I have 4 BG's of P&S with Regimental Gun designed to go out into the flanks if necessary. Naturally, if you're going to throw that much into the flank they aren't in the centre, but you would only do that if the flank was inundated with troops, which means your enemy is also not got much in the centre.

With the Great Commander and rear support, I feel that the P&S would be in a pretty good position. A lot of points are there, but so are the enemy if it's threatening. If it's just a couple of BG's of Dragoons and commanded shot... well, I'll take on those with 2 BG's of P&S and a possible roving band of Danish Mounted.

marshalney2000
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:14 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by marshalney2000 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:21 am

The points you make are valid and it will be interesting to see how the army works out in practice. My response to your initial post was really expressing the view that I did not think the Danish army as constructed by yourself was the best army in the Duty and Glory book. I was particularly concerned re the amalgamated pike with two regimental guns still attached and it was these I said could be outshot by Dragoons etc. I see in your latest note that your are now proposing keeping the pike and shot together with the regimental gun and this does provide better flank protection but of course prevents you creating the eight stand musket unit which was your original objective with these units.
Any way let us know how it works in practice.
John

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:36 am

marshalney2000 wrote:The points you make are valid and it will be interesting to see how the army works out in practice. My response to your initial post was really expressing the view that I did not think the Danish army as constructed by yourself was the best army in the Duty and Glory book. I was particularly concerned re the amalgamated pike with two regimental guns still attached and it was these I said could be outshot by Dragoons etc. I see in your latest note that your are now proposing keeping the pike and shot together with the regimental gun and this does provide better flank protection but of course prevents you creating the eight stand musket unit which was your original objective with these units.
Any way let us know how it works in practice.
John
You've mis-read (or I've poorly written - probably more likley) what I said:

There are two types of P&S troops in my list. Those with regimental guns, and those without. The ones without have their shot detached. The ones with acts as flank guards, hence:
I'd use the BG's with Regimental Gun as flank guards to keep the enemy mounted honest.
The army I designed was meant to have the 8shot BG's able to outshoot pretty much any foot, and have bayonet in case things get a big hairy, the P&S with regimental gun stay with their pikes, and act as flank security. The Guard act as roving 'killer' troops (put them down last and try to point in the direction of most death and destruction. The Pike from the 8packs act as rear support for artillery, and since the pike have no regimental guns no wastage. The Dragoons are quick reaction forces for flank support. The Dt Horse does what it does best - hide behind real troops and boost their morale. They can also go out on the flanks to make like difficult for things like Dragoons and Commanded shot who decide to play ahistorically.

Hope this is a bit clearer.

nigelemsen
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: Alderholt, Near Ringwood, Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by nigelemsen » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:35 am

ravenflight wrote:
marshalney2000 wrote:The points you make are valid and it will be interesting to see how the army works out in practice. My response to your initial post was really expressing the view that I did not think the Danish army as constructed by yourself was the best army in the Duty and Glory book. I was particularly concerned re the amalgamated pike with two regimental guns still attached and it was these I said could be outshot by Dragoons etc. I see in your latest note that your are now proposing keeping the pike and shot together with the regimental gun and this does provide better flank protection but of course prevents you creating the eight stand musket unit which was your original objective with these units.
Any way let us know how it works in practice.
John
You've mis-read (or I've poorly written - probably more likley) what I said:

There are two types of P&S troops in my list. Those with regimental guns, and those without. The ones without have their shot detached. The ones with acts as flank guards, hence:
I'd use the BG's with Regimental Gun as flank guards to keep the enemy mounted honest.
The army I designed was meant to have the 8shot BG's able to outshoot pretty much any foot, and have bayonet in case things get a big hairy, the P&S with regimental gun stay with their pikes, and act as flank security. The Guard act as roving 'killer' troops (put them down last and try to point in the direction of most death and destruction. The Pike from the 8packs act as rear support for artillery, and since the pike have no regimental guns no wastage. The Dragoons are quick reaction forces for flank support. The Dt Horse does what it does best - hide behind real troops and boost their morale. They can also go out on the flanks to make like difficult for things like Dragoons and Commanded shot who decide to play ahistorically.

Hope this is a bit clearer.
Looks like a very dangerous option for me if anyone takes it to britcon... But what do I know mr 10pts total each year :)
Proelium: Wargaming rules for 3000B.C. - 1901A.D.
Hordes of Models and Buckets of Dice
Web: www.quickplayrules.com
Social: www.facebook.com/quickplayrules
Twitter: @quickplayrules

ravenflight
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Brigadier-General - 15 cm Nblwf 41
Posts: 1966
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:29 am

nigelemsen wrote:Looks like a very dangerous option for me if anyone takes it to britcon... But what do I know mr 10pts total each year :)
You get to 10 points?

Wow, tell me your secret!!!

I get 25 points in every game that I play. Well, there are 25 points scored... just not by me.

nigelemsen
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: Alderholt, Near Ringwood, Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Hapsburg Austrian Imperial

Post by nigelemsen » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:00 pm

ravenflight wrote:
nigelemsen wrote:Looks like a very dangerous option for me if anyone takes it to britcon... But what do I know mr 10pts total each year :)
You get to 10 points?

Wow, tell me your secret!!!

I get 25 points in every game that I play. Well, there are 25 points scored... just not by me.
Pled poverty and sympthany for bringing such a daft army selection....
Proelium: Wargaming rules for 3000B.C. - 1901A.D.
Hordes of Models and Buckets of Dice
Web: www.quickplayrules.com
Social: www.facebook.com/quickplayrules
Twitter: @quickplayrules

Post Reply

Return to “Army Design”