Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

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puster
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Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by puster » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:47 am

Well, this nice little corner is not exactly well used, but...

I was wondering wether it makes sense to create a standard conversion for older lists, mainly "Storm of arrows" to use with FOG-R?

Where will the point cost differ?

Or is there a chance that a "book of lost scrolls" for FOG-R will contain some of these lists?

timmy1
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Post by timmy1 » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:36 pm

I have asked the same of the authors but we are on our own. I am willing to assist having tried it for Morat / Murten if you want to start the process.

puster
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Have to wait...

Post by puster » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:13 am

Timmy, any input will be greatly appreciated. I think I will make a try once I get back a copy of "Storm of Arrows". I lost mine (probably loaned it out and forgot about it), but hopefully I will get a replacement soon.

I have also contemplated to do battle or campaign specific army lists (or rather builds), mainly for the Italian wars - though some of the other army lists are also pretty broadly painted and can use some more precise speficifications (the Welsche Garde comes to mind).
There are also certainly some interesting battles pre 1500 that left their footprints in the development of the "Swiss" infantry system, and none more then Murten.

Two problems to start with...
One main problem I see with using FOG-R for earlier lists is the efficiency of the arquebus. The effect of heavier armour in response to firearms has already set in before the Burgundian wars, so imho the classification as arquebus is rather safe here - but what about earlier or other armies? Would there be a need for some "handgonne" (which means the introduction of new rules) or is the arquebus sufficient?

On another note, I am not sure wether the fighting style of light infantry, especially Italian and Spanish units in the Italian wars, is sufficiently covered. The mixture of firearms with swords and helbards is perhaps better met if these units have both arquebus and swordsman (for more points, to represent the value to keep experienced troops happy, or employed).

Anyway, starting with a FOG-R representation of the earlier Swiss and Burgundian armies will be a good start, imho. I will come back here when I get Storm of Arrows back.

puster
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Murten

Post by puster » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:19 am

To start with, I will read through your Murten-scenario and comment upon it soon...

puster
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Burgundian Ordonnance - pre

Post by puster » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:51 pm

I think I will start with this one...

I make up a new point cost list and post it for comments (and put it down if Slitherine/Osprey says so).

To start with...

Do you think that the household gendarmes are better represented as elite (like the Welsche Garde) or simply superior Gensdarmes?

I am tempted to go for elite (just 2 bases) and offer the option for both superior and average for ordonnance men-at-arms.

I am also not sure that the number of pikemen is sufficiently represented, or wether the list needs the chance to have two pikeblocks. Can they form Keils, or should öthese be disallowed (as special rule?).

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Post by timmy1 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:53 am

I can't see any historical justification for elite Gensdarmes based upon their battlefield performance. However if you can find some good examples willing to reconsider.

Option for superior and average ordonnance men-at-arms seems correct to me.

I think one pike block is enough. Can't see any reason why they can't be a keil.

puster
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Moving...

Post by puster » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:59 am

I will move the debate on the Burgundian Ordonnance over to the other thread.

What other FOG armies justifiy a FOG-R representation?

Ordonnance French
Swiss?
Early Maximilian army. German 13-1500 seems too broad.

Perhaps the FOGR lists for these are sufficient?

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Post by timmy1 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:00 am

Will have a think about others.

puster
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Possible army lists...

Post by puster » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:21 pm

From FOG
- Swiss Confederates
- Ordonnance French
- Early Maximilian (Later low countries from 1477)
- Condotta Italian

Others
- Early Italian Wars French
- Italian states: Milan, Venetia, Borgia Papal, Florence, Naples, others
- HRE Friedrich

I will leave out the final battles of the Reconquista, the War of the Roses and other theatres, though I am tempted with Ottomans and Hungarians.

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Re: Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by Rekila » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:14 pm

I hope this topic is not definitively dead by now. Unfortunately last year I have been lost in a different era (WWII) and missed it. A pity as the subject is very dear to me. Let’s hope it can come to live again! We are preparing an historical campaign centered on the period. The idea is to play a series of historical scenarios, focus more in the armies, that in the battle itself. The scenarios shold be based on equal points. The idea is to check the evolution of the different tactical systems , as they confront each other. The first scenarios will focus on the impact created by the Swiss Keils. Our first battle should be based in Grandson, were the two first modern era armies confronts. I am getting information and developing a list for the burgundian army, so any new ideas should be welcome. A second problem , already pointed, is that of early pike formations, I work in the idea of making them spear and no pike, so to restring the number of pike keils only to those armies that adopt the Swiss system. Any suggestions should be very appreciated.

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Re: Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by hazelbark » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:08 pm

Less precise to what was being asked, but about 2-3 months ago we fought a War of the Roses Battle using SoA lists but in every way used the FOGR rules.

We both enjoyed the game and found it felt quite good historically speaking. One we played at 900 points and basically that meant we could buy everything. This is due to the Longbow being relatively more expensive in the ancient rules.

So when you convert over lists, be wary about suddenly low cost troops being quite numerous.

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Re: Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by Rekila » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:56 pm

Yes, that’s why I intended d to base the scenarios in historical battles from 1476 on. So that even if the armies are selected from Storm of arrows, they must have the maximum allowance of “modern” troops types present in the battle. That’s why at first I intended to begin with Grandson, but at the same time make also scenarios for battles like Bosworth, to emphatic the contrast with the new tactical systems. In fact our first scenario will be probably not Grandson but the Battle of Toro between Castilian and Portugal the same year.

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Re: Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by alasdair2204 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:14 pm

Next Year is 30 Years since the George Gush Lists which went from 1420 onwards so in the southern league next year at least one of the events will be a pre 1500 one which we will have to make lists for, and once we have done that we'll make them available

cheers

Alasdair

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Re: Pre 1500 lists... (also covered by FOG-A)

Post by timmy1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:14 pm

Alasdair

I did some work for a Murten game using FoGR so if you need some input to the Swiss and Burgundian lists let me know.

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