German Protestant (Lutheran) Princes - 1540-1600 list?

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German Protestant (Lutheran) Princes - 1540-1600 list?

Post by Aetius » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:31 pm

I was having a trawl through the Trade & Treachery book and suddenly realised that there is an obvious list omission ... where is the Lutheran Princes
(Protestant German) 1540-1600 list (not exactly sure about dates - need a bit more reading ???)

Now, I know it wont be a super army and it fought only a very few battles, but it was one of my favourite armies under Newbury & Gush.

It's the one that you can (potentially) form an entire army of Reiter out of (a bit extreme I know, but a fun option) or a rather 'average' army of Reiter, a
few LH Arq, a couple of medium guns, some MF Arq Militia and a number of large Landsknecht Pike, Halb & Arq armed Keils (like the ones in the Hugeunot &
Catholic French or 80yrs War Dutch lists). In fact the army is even reffered to in the Trade & Treachery list book - Page 78 - the Battle of Muglberg 1547.

Is there a list on this site elsewhere that anybody knows about? If not, my 'stab' at it is listed below (I'll work on the presentation of
the list in the right format later):

Troop Types:
Reiter: Horse; Superior/Average; Hvy/Arm; Shooting Pistol + Melee Pistol
4-6 bases per BG
(1 Superior BG max for every 2 Average BG)

Landsknechts (Keils):
HF; Superior/Average; Unarmoured/Arm; Pike
HF; Superior/Average; Unarmoured/Arm; Hvy Weapons
MF; Superior/Average; Unarmoured; Arq
4-8 bases Pike, 0-2 bases Halb; 4-6 bases Shot
(MF cannot outnumber HF in any BG)
(1 Superior BG max for every 2 Average BG)
(1 Armoured BG max for every 1 Unarmoured)
To qualify as Keil must field at least 2 columns of Pikes (& Halb) at least 4
bases deep

Light Horse:
LH; Average; Unarmoured; Arquebus
4 bases per BG (0-8 max)
(cannot outnumber Reiter BGs)

Militia Foot:
MF; Average/Poor; Unarmoured; Arqebus
4-6 bases per BG (0-12)

Field Artillery:
0-2 x Medium Guns; Average
0-2 x Light Guns; Average
Maxium 2 guns can be fielded

So not that exciting ... and if you wanted to sort of field it now, you could probably just use the Early 80 yrs war Dutch as a substitute ...

The 'trick' is writing the notes so that you can field an army that has a load of Reiter + the Light Horse but no Landscknechts, Militia or guns. Or equally
one that includes an appropriate mix of a few Reiter BGs plus a load of Landsknechts ... which is why I've put no min or max on the Reiter or Landsknechts above (for now).

I had throught you could probably include:
Serbian Hussars: LH, unarmoured, average, light lance, swd - in BG's of (0-4 max) ... but not 100% convinced ???

Likewise the option to add in a unit of:
Gentry: Horse; Average/Poor; Armoured; Hvy Lance, Swd (0-4) was appealing but again not sure the historical sources really justify it???

A BG of Angry Town-folk (Average, unarmoured, mob), was also tempting, but there are no references (that I can find) that they actually turned up at any larger
engagements - more appropriate for burning local papist churches in retaliation in history!

Anyway ... just wondering what you folks thoughts were?


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Re: German Protestant (Lutheran) Princes - 1540-1600 list?

Post by batesmotel » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:14 pm

I think the Later Imperial Austrian and German States list in Clash of Empires is what the authors intended to cover this period. You might want to look at it to see if it will come close enough to what you want. The list does require some foot and artillery so doesn't allow for a completely mounted force.

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Re: German Protestant (Lutheran) Princes - 1540-1600 list?

Post by Aetius » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:37 pm

Yup - I've had a look at both it & the German States list in T&T - neither has the appropriate 'feel' IMHO.

The German States list only has 8 Reiter - surely that must be an error???? I can understand a proportionality concept, but even so.
Also it's Landsknechts are unable to form BGs with integral MF Arq - again that seems might strange, as the Heugunot & Catholic Frence and the early 80 years Dutch can. Maybe there's some arguement or historical research that shows that Landsknechts within the 'empire' (loyal or rebellious) didn't form mixed BGs this early ... but I'm dubious.
Also there are no 'Serbian Hussar' LH in this or the later list - even though there is clear pictorial evidence for their inclusion. Shame really, even 1 BG would add a bit of colour.

The Later Imperial Austian and German States does have enough Reiter and also integral P&S armed Landsknecthts, but these are to be depicted as Tercios, so are too 'late' really. Likewise the amount and quality of Heavy Lance armed Men-at-Arms is probably too high.

I know I'm being picky ... but ...!
A 'chum' suggested that I just use the all Landsknect & Reiter varient of the Early 80 years Dutch and stop whinging ... but whilst that's an ok idea, the Landsknects & Reiter are all Average ... which seems a tad unfair.
But we'll see.


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