Page 1 of 1

Suggestions, troop types, etc.

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:50 am
by magobarca
Hi, Very good game as it is. Thanx. However, maybe somethings might be made more historical/realistic.

1) As you know, not all of Rome's military manpower pool consisted of Romans & Latins, yet this is what the games only uses. If the manpower pool were cut back to say 50% or so (based somewhat on actual historical manpower available from Rome & its allies) for the Roman & Latin troops & then replace this manpower with Italian 1-2 Inf. & 2-1 Cav. - the same as Carthage can recruit - especially the 1-2 Italian Inf. replacing the 1 - circle 2 Roman & Latin Inf. - then perhaps the game would be somewhat more balanced.

2) The Roman Urban Legions were not Elite troops at the time of the 1st & 2nd Punic Wars, yet they are represented as such in the game. The Urban legions at this time consisted of at least 2 of the 4 & more newly raised legions assigned to the consuls & praetors each year. The 2 new legions would USUALLY spend a year in training in Rome before taking the field & then be replaced with 2 - or 4 - new legions the following year. Usually only 2 new legions were kept in Rome. The Urban Legions were never elite but were usually & actually recruits each & every year during the 1st & 2nd Punic Wars. If 2 new legions were kept in Rome, then usually the remaining 2 new legions would be sent to a secondary front. Many times new consuls & praetors were assigned veteran legions already in the field for 1 or more years. All this info. is in Polybius & Livy etc. primary & secondary sources & modern secondary sources. Rome did have large & very formidable fortifications though, very strong, & they stopped Hannibal from attempting an assault on Rome as well as the large garisson of at least 2 Urban (recruit) legions & also militia.

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:26 pm
by magobarca
3) This is a very good & realistic part of the game, that is that the Romans get 1 or 2 'Raise 2 scratch legions' & 1 'Raise 1 scratch legion' cards during the game. This is analogous to what occurred after Cannae when Rome raised ~8,000 slaves & formed them into 2 new legions along with ~6,000 freed penal inmates & also formed them into 2 new legions. The 2 penal legions & probably the 2 slave legions were equipped with previously captured Gallic arms & probably captured Italian arms as well. The 2 slave legions served under Gracchus & performed well & defeated Hanno's 17,000 troops at 2nd Beneventum. 25,000 allied troops initially accompanied the slave legions. After 2nd Beneventum the slaves were granted their freedom & continued to serve well under Gracchus. When Gracchus was killed, the former slaves supposedly quit & deserted. However, later in the war 2 slave legions are mentioned as being in Etruria in order to quell Etruscan unrest. These 2 legions may actually have been the penal rather than slave legions, or perhaps Rome raised 2 more slave legions yet nowhere in the sources is this act mentioned. It is also possible that the slave legions never did dissolve & were part of the 8,000 troops (4,000 Roamn & allied each) put under the command of the centurion Marcus Centennius Paenula or Penula in 212BC, which were along with ~8,000 additonal volunteers defeated in Lucania by Hannibal in the same year. However, only about 1,000 or so of Peanula's force survived, so it is unlikely that (IMHO) his force contained the loyal slave remanants of the original 2 slave legions. The 'Raise 1 scratch legion' card could easily represent the so-called marine legion that was raised from the fleet & took position along the coastal road to Rome in order to help block a movement by Hannibal after Cannae upon Rome from that direction. Perahps special counters, dark pink or red in color could be used to represent these 5 scratch legions, which counters would bear the letters 'RS' (the 2 slave legions), 'RP' (the 2 penal legions), & 'RM' (the 1 marine/navy legion). The counter strngths could be either 1 - circle 2 or 1 - 2, or for the slaves circle 1 - 2, since the slaves fought hard & on the attack to gain their freedom. This would simply add more historical flavor to the game.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:07 am
by mercenarius
Hi "Mago"

Thanks for your interest. You make a number of good points. But I don't think that I am going to make any changes of this sort to the game right now. I will try to justify this decision:

1) You're right that most of Rome's allied manpower did not come from Latin communities. And I have mentioned that in passing in the first tutorial (and maybe the manual, too, but I don't remember). I thought that it would be an acceptable simplification to use one unit type and nationality for Rome's allies. But it is a simplification. The game doesn't think that all Roman allies were Latin. As for combat effectiveness, I found that it works better to give the allied legions the same bonus that the Roman legions have. It seems to me that Roman armies consistently defeated Carthaginian armies in pitched battles unless Hannibal was in command or trickery was employed. I think that the cavalry and elephants which the Carthaginians possess tend to balance things out.

2) The Urban Legions in the game are really an amalgamation of the actual Urban Legions along with any scratch forces that the Romans could raise. I assumed that such a force would fight quite hard to defend Rome. It would also have the benefit of readier access to armorers, etc., so I give them the extra attack factor. I also did this to adjust the effectiveness of the total garrison in Rome when defending the city from an attempt to storm it. I think that it balances out pretty well.

3) You have some good ideas here. To a certain degree this is a cosmetic change, although it would give some additional historical flavor.

Time constraints (my budget, really) probably won't allow for changes of this kind. Sorry.

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:45 am
by magobarca
Hi & greetings, Yes, my ideas are cosmetic to a small degree but more historically accurate to a larger degree. Something such as we are speaking of & analyzing is hard to put into a workable & mainly uncomplicated streamlined format, but even with such ideas as I have put forth the complication is rather slight.

As it is the game is fine, & Rome's large manpower reserves & stubborness that won the war for Rome is well portrayed.

As for the Urban Legions, at this time period & earlier they were simply recruits that usually stayed there 1-year in training before being moved to the field & not elite nor better equipped than any other Roman troops. Frequently, troops were drafted from these urban garrison legions as replacements for other legions in the field, & these drafted troops were replaced by emergencies levies of new & untrained recruits. However, they & the citizens of Rome would have fought exceedingly hard to defend the city as you state. Example: At the time when hannibal encamped before the city of Rome, there were ~1,200 Numidian cavalry deserters in the garrison of Rome. They were ordered to move through an outlying area of the city & as they did so they were attacked by the Roman citizenry who bombarded them with all sorts of projectiles thrown from the upper levles of their homes etc. The poor Numidians suffered a good but unknown number of casualties before the mistake was realized. What you also point out is what is what happened during the Roman siege & assault on the city of Carthage in the 3rd Punic War & in other places at varying times in the world's history, Warsaw 1944, Stalingrad 1942, etc. Circle 2 - Circle 2 strength to me is still a bit too powerful, but that is the way it is in the game so ...

Same for all the 1 - Circle 2 Latin & Roman troops - simply not historically representative but counterbalanced by Hannibal's nuclear powered battle cards!!! ha ha ha!! I like those, but they are nasty, & I am biased toward the Carthaginian side just a wee bit. :D :roll:

Anyway, I have enjoyed the game. Thanx. Happy Holidays, too!!

Re: Suggestions, troop types, etc.

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:02 am
by Huskie
Someone knows their history quite well...

Thanks for the read,