Is flammpanzer worth using?

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MaxDoge
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Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by MaxDoge » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:54 pm

Has anyone found a good efficient use for flammpanzer overall?

I've used it for fun in the past but was never quite happy with how it performed, took too many casualties too often. It was my favorite unit back in modded PG2.

I'm trying to think of a way to abuse its insane 140% RoF, and I'm just thinking out loud here. But 140% RoF means that a 10 strength flamm has 14 shots and can kill a 14 strength conscript! So probably better suited to the eastern front :)

Biggest issue is because it's classified as a tank so fighting in close terrain will cap that decent initiative so will regularly take casualties because infantry don't get capped, even though it ignores entrenchments. Without that initiative cap it would be a completely broken unit. Bunker busting ability is not a big deal since it only has 1 hard attack so that's pretty weak.

It can't really attack any soft AT targets because they have high initiative and get a +3 bonus against tanks, yikes, so that only leaves taking fights against infantry in the open and against artillery. It can't really efficiently clear cities because his initiative is capped at 1 in city hexes and experience doesn't help either, so needs the target to be fully suppressed first. I guess it can fight on hill hexes against infantry since those are capped at 5 initiative, but forest and bocage etc is really bad for flamm.

I love the concept of flamm but you obviously have to use overstrength on him to get the max benefit from high RoF, but then you're likely to suffer easy casualties if you don't fully suppress so I'm not sure whether I should invest in it for my current GC run. I've done a bit of testing with giving my flamms all imaginable heroes from 3 attack and defense to other stuff, but doesn't impact the outcomes or the gameplay too much.

Am I missing something obvious here, or does that about sum it up?

Also, does anyone know what the highest kill ratio % cap is? From memory it's capped at 81% kills right?

PeteMitchell
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by PeteMitchell » Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:14 pm

You can use it in cities until the end of 42 (Stalingrad)
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http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=86481

goose_2
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by goose_2 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:53 pm

MaxDoge wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:54 pm
Has anyone found a good efficient use for flammpanzer overall?

I've used it for fun in the past but was never quite happy with how it performed, took too many casualties too often. It was my favorite unit back in modded PG2.

I'm trying to think of a way to abuse its insane 140% RoF, and I'm just thinking out loud here. But 140% RoF means that a 10 strength flamm has 14 shots and can kill a 14 strength conscript! So probably better suited to the eastern front :)

Biggest issue is because it's classified as a tank so fighting in close terrain will cap that decent initiative so will regularly take casualties because infantry don't get capped, even though it ignores entrenchments. Without that initiative cap it would be a completely broken unit. Bunker busting ability is not a big deal since it only has 1 hard attack so that's pretty weak.

It can't really attack any soft AT targets because they have high initiative and get a +3 bonus against tanks, yikes, so that only leaves taking fights against infantry in the open and against artillery. It can't really efficiently clear cities because his initiative is capped at 1 in city hexes and experience doesn't help either, so needs the target to be fully suppressed first. I guess it can fight on hill hexes against infantry since those are capped at 5 initiative, but forest and bocage etc is really bad for flamm.

I love the concept of flamm but you obviously have to use overstrength on him to get the max benefit from high RoF, but then you're likely to suffer easy casualties if you don't fully suppress so I'm not sure whether I should invest in it for my current GC run. I've done a bit of testing with giving my flamms all imaginable heroes from 3 attack and defense to other stuff, but doesn't impact the outcomes or the gameplay too much.

Am I missing something obvious here, or does that about sum it up?

Also, does anyone know what the highest kill ratio % cap is? From memory it's capped at 81% kills right?
I love love love the Flamm.

I have Heinz Rondorf in a Flamm in the East on Ultimate difficulty. And both Albert Kerscher and Heinz Rondorf in Flams in my West Ultimate playthrough.

I am using them in the west as mobile Pioniere's, and in the East as a Conscript killer.

The key to using them successfully is the same for Pioniere's use suppression to minimize damage and maximize the kills.

Do not let them get out front as they are a target for the enemy tanks.

I love 'em, and pretty sure I will keep 'em going through whole playthrough.
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Panzerpimp
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Panzerpimp » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:38 pm

I think all the good uses for it are already mentioned in this thread.
Personally I never found a use for it in my cores.
This tank gets too vulnerable for my taste just like the scout units which I also dislike for the same reason.
I noticed that the AI likes to specifically target it with many units, so I have to babysit this tank after every attack. :(

On the other hand I found good use for the flamethrower tanks in the Soviet Corps campaign. In fact I even replaced my infantry with flamethrower tank units as they performed better. :)
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MaxDoge
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by MaxDoge » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:25 am

Wow, didn't know the Soviets had flamethrower tanks, didn't play them yet :)

Yeah, thanks for the reminder, the flammpanzer was AI's most hated unit by far from memory, needs a lot of babysitting but can trigger some nice traps at least. I will try and use one in my game, if I end up liking it I might go for 2.

captainjack
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by captainjack » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:34 am

I think the T26 flame tank is one of Nico's extras . His equipment file mods are pretty good overall and add some nice extras

TSPC37730
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by TSPC37730 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:58 pm

Flamm Panzers can accumulate a huge number of kills. They are great units to have until Stalingrad. Once you get past that point, you can leverage their heroes and decide on an upgrade.

MaxDoge
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by MaxDoge » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:30 pm

TSPC37730 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:58 pm
Flamm Panzers can accumulate a huge number of kills. They are great units to have until Stalingrad. Once you get past that point, you can leverage their heroes and decide on an upgrade.
Why until Stalingrad, because Soviets get better infantry after that? Not played past that point in GC. But flamm is a unique unit, there are no upgrades for it.

Do other players discard flamms after that point as well, or do they still find them useful?

PeteMitchell
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by PeteMitchell » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:06 pm

IMHO... Stalingrad is the last big city map until Berlin... plus after that point the Soviet tanks become too strong for a PzII so you need to protect the Flamm all the time (i.e. from city to city) which is not a very effective use of your resources... The Flamm is not strong enough for open terrain and suffers in close terrain as well...

Sure, there will always be situations to use it here and their or for cleaning up work behind the main line but the Flamm is easy prey for SU tanks after end of 42...
Comprehensive Battlefield Europe AAR:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=86481

captainjack
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by captainjack » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:23 am

I agree. T26 flame tank and flammpanzer become vulnerable around 1941 or so and start to lose usefulness as they can't cope with front line roles. After about 1942 they need so much looking after they start to become a liability. In contrast, a churchill croc is pretty durable unless you mix a really bad move with bad luck.

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by goose_2 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:59 pm

captainjack wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:23 am
I agree. T26 flame tank and flammpanzer become vulnerable around 1941 or so and start to lose usefulness as they can't cope with front line roles. After about 1942 they need so much looking after they start to become a liability. In contrast, a churchill croc is pretty durable unless you mix a really bad move with bad luck.
Oh Yeah...Crocodile's are absolute beasts. I forgot about those, as Allied Corps is so rarely played. Why do you think that is? I am enjoying the newness of Zilla Blitz's playthrough, but he hasn't continued for so long
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Kawaleria » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:40 am

I dont use Flamm. first its too fragile
second: it is still a tank and attacking entranched infantry cause losses. I think infantry is better against infantry especially after 1941.

Maybe a good idea is to give Flamm tank to Rondorf hero for kills farming in 1940-41, then shift to Panzer IV

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Panzerpimp » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:34 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:59 pm
as Allied Corps is so rarely played. Why do you think that is?
It is a mystery...

I, for one, like the Allied Corps very much. The scenarios are so varied and you have 2 separate entries in the campaign for US and UK which is also nice.

And Crocodiles are great indeed. :)
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Yrfin » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:48 pm

At last Flamm Units must have 6/6 SA/HA. And Ammo down to 2 to compencate.
Why ?! Why what !? Why not...

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by hugh2711 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:15 am

I find that: up to modlin in gc39 you have one main czech t38, this ends up with a couple of stars experience. After modlin it gets sidelined for a while because you have the S+2 D+2 A+2 t38 given in modlin. When flamms become available I convert the unemployed two star t38 to a flamm. About the same time wurfrahmen become available. I pair up the flamm with a wurfrahmen and it becomes a soft target shredder. I dont use it against other tanks but with the wurfrahmen suppressing it takes out infantry at a really high value without losing any points itself. It accumulates kills at a fabulous rate because it already has a couple of stars experience. There are some scenarios it is really good for partisans and isolated infantry. e.g. stalingrad docks. I use it to quickly take out ALL the infantry to the left of the main town/urban area. At first I never use them but once you get used to them there is nothing (when coupled with a wurfrahmen) there is nothing that takes out soft targets quicker.

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Chris 'o war » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:45 pm

I just entered the start of Barbosa and was actually thinking of deploying one, figured with all those russian troops i might find some good use for it.....

edit ( just spend all my do on extra messerschmidt's mobile artillery and AA so the flamer has to wait )

heinzrondorf
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by heinzrondorf » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:50 pm

I love it for the time you can actually use it. One of my favorite units in the game.

However, I echo what PeteMitchell wrote above. It is very useful until the end of GC42. By the start of GC43 it becomes so much of a headache to babysit I find it is not worth it anymore. The negatives outweigh the positives by then so to speak.

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by LevV » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:39 am

I used it in vanilla campaign until USA scenarious, now i realise it was mostly a waste of core slot for the most part and dont really want using it again in DLC. The idea of pairing with wurfrahmen is interesting, but i see many drawbacks to it: this will require AT, AA and inf support, so taking a lot of slots & prestige, still taking casualities. i doubt it worth it. actually i doubt the idea of wurfrahmen itself, which is quite expensive & fragile.

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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by Buffalohump » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:19 am

LevV wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:39 am
I used it in vanilla campaign until USA scenarious, now i realise it was mostly a waste of core slot for the most part and dont really want using it again in DLC. The idea of pairing with wurfrahmen is interesting, but i see many drawbacks to it: this will require AT, AA and inf support, so taking a lot of slots & prestige, still taking casualities. i doubt it worth it. actually i doubt the idea of wurfrahmen itself, which is quite expensive & fragile.
I disagree. I have successfully used the Flammpanzer till the end of campaign on Field Marshall without undo attention to its survival. It is being used wrong. It is a support unit. I use it in the main body of my army, never in my armored spearheads. WWII German tactical doctrine of penetration and envelopment translates very well in game. Set up your "Kesselschlacht".

Regards,

LevV
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Re: Is flammpanzer worth using?

Post by LevV » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:39 pm

Buffalohump wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:19 am
LevV wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:39 am
I used it in vanilla campaign until USA scenarious, now i realise it was mostly a waste of core slot for the most part and dont really want using it again in DLC. The idea of pairing with wurfrahmen is interesting, but i see many drawbacks to it: this will require AT, AA and inf support, so taking a lot of slots & prestige, still taking casualities. i doubt it worth it. actually i doubt the idea of wurfrahmen itself, which is quite expensive & fragile.
I disagree. I have successfully used the Flammpanzer till the end of campaign on Field Marshall without undo attention to its survival. It is being used wrong. It is a support unit. I use it in the main body of my army, never in my armored spearheads. WWII German tactical doctrine of penetration and envelopment translates very well in game. Set up your "Kesselschlacht".

Regards,
I decided i will give flammpanzer another try in my current play-through of GC, i keep one pz2c for that purpose; I am trying to employ many ideas from this forum. However i am still sceptical that my auxilary force will have room for this specialized unit, after i distrbiture armor on all necessary directions. What is your virtual core composition for late war period, example being US midwest of vanilla, could you share an idea?

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