Leaders

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

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Kerensky
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Leaders

Post by Kerensky » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:58 am

I know leaders didn't exist in the original Panzer General, but they were probably one of the best additions to Panzer General 2, and I hope they come back in Panzer Corps.

Assuming there are going to be leaders though, I would like to see a slight change to the system.
The whole 'chance to get a leader when you level/rank up' is fine, but the randomness of what you got bothered me. A lot of frustrating saving and loading when your 2 speed pioneer Infantry gets recon movement, or your artillery unit gets a bridging leader, or if anyone got influence as their specialty.

Obviously it wouldn't be right for the player to choose their leader freely, every tank would probably be Overwatch(Overpowered), Artillery would be Devastating fire or Fire Discipline, et cetera.

So, as a compromise, I was thinking about a few possible solutions.

#1 When you get a leader, you can choose their specialty, within a limited pool. According to
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Panzer_General_II/Leaders
There are 25 random leader attributes, some are exclusive to air or infantry though. So from that pool of ~20, I would have the game randomly select 5. From that 5, the player can choose the one what they want.

#2 When you get a leader, you can choose their specialty. However, when you get another leader, if you choose a specialty that already exists on another unit, you have to pay for it.
For example. Your first Overwatch tank will cost nothing, it's free. Your second Overwatch leader will cost you an additional 500 prestige, or free to choose any other specialty. Your third Overwatch leader will cost 2500 additional prestige, your fourth Overwatch leader will cost 12500 additional prestige. So it will become very inefficient to only have Overwatch or Devastating fire, you're going to have to choose other specialties or end up paying exorbitant amounts of prestige.

Thoughts? Other Suggestions?

Oh, and are there plans for restricting how many leaders you can have?
Is it possible with outrageous luck to have every single core unit have a leader?
Is there a non-flexible number, like a total of 10?
Is there a scaling number? For every 5 core units, your potential leader pool increases by 1? For example if you have a tiny core, you're not going to see a lot of leaders. If you have 25 core units, you've got a chance to gain a new leader every time it's possible until you have 5, then you can never get another leader until you lose one or have 30 core units. (I like this idea the best, but maybe not 5 to 1)

Razz1
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Post by Razz1 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:17 am

If there are limited number leaders and limited specialties, then choosing them would be good.

Obsolete
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Post by Obsolete » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:03 am

A lot of frustrating saving and loading when...
LOL, you try to CHEAT the system, and then complain that trying to CHEAT is being frustrating?

In that case, DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING Slitherine!
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Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:18 am

Never mind that you took what I said completely out of context, but was that really constructive? Seriously now.

As you just demonstrated yourself, there's a built in cheat around the current leader system. People can accept a less than optimal leader, or save and load until they get the one they want. Why not try to think of a system that
A. Does not have a built in way to 'cheat' around. (Saving and loading)
B. Improves quality of game play while not trivializing the content at the same time.

For example, a system that allows you to get the leader you prefer, but at an increasing cost if you keep choosing the same type of leader again and again.

Taking excessive RNG out of the equation is generally a positive when it comes to gaming. I suppose they can just leave it the same, or even go so far in leaving it the same by just not have leaders at all like standard PG, but I would like to think they're rather improve their systems instead. Otherwise we all might as well just go back to playing PG or PG2, and btw PG2 has a lot of fantastic custom campaigns so I am expecting quite a bit out of PzC or I'll just get my fill of WW2 gameplay from PG2.

soldier
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Post by soldier » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:21 am

Sorry this off topic but this guy also completeley missed the point of my last 2 posts before ridiculing them. He appears not to understand the suggestions he bags and his comments do not contribute to any further positive discussion about the upcoming release.
I mean really .."DON"T CHANGE ANYTHING SLITHERINE" is a truly bizarre comment to make on a forum promoting a new game. I personally hope that some of the old systems in previous games that can be exploited are looked at and improved in PanzerCorps and leaders certainly sounds like one.
However to play the devils advocate here, I don't remember leaders at all in Panzer General and hardly played PG2 so i view thier inclusion with some suspicion, I guess if thought through and implemted properly they are feature which could add a new flavour to particular battles. Bonuses like a Forest fighting ability could certainly help in some areas where support is lacking and your facing a lot of facing troop vs troop conflict but then you can usually just buy more auxillary infantry for the task required. So their inclusion must be balanced out with other ways of solving battlefield field problems.
I wouldnt like to see five star tanks with leaders that offered street fighting advantages.

dks
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Post by dks » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:38 pm

the problem I see with leaders ability is the scale of the game. PG was and is a much different scale than PG2. to me leaders always reminded me of a squad scale size option. 5 bars experience any type of equipment and an added leaders attribute made that piece of equipment uber status. uber is something I believe PzC is trying to avoid.

PG has an equipment file with built in attributes for equipment desired. as mentioned a mountain plus fighting points infantry or para infantry plus points would to me touch base with the PG2 leaders ability. two good examples were the Pioniers and Bridge units.

another thought is that purchasing equipment for a specific task or upgrading for a specific task in an upcomming battle makes more for a strategy rather than always relying on tactics to win a battle.

I would like to see PzC adopt the PG2 no upgrades once the battle has started play.

Obsolete
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Post by Obsolete » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:56 am

I don't remember leaders at all in Panzer General and hardly played PG2 so i view thier inclusion with some suspicion,
http://members.iinet.net.au/~vaughans/F ... eaders.htm
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Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

TheGrayMouser
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:43 pm

I really have no concern if leaders are added or not. i recall them from PG 2 but they really never seemed to matter too much gameplay wise, at least for me. i certainly never got more attached to any unit due to a leader "sprouting" randomly in it:)

Obsolete
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Post by Obsolete » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:29 am

People can accept a less than optimal leader, or save and load until they get the one they want. Why not try to think of a system that...
Once you broke 500 exp, there was a PERMANENT experience loss to these units once you started a re-load. I thought that was an interesting way to penalize re-load cheaters.
Image
Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:01 am

roflmao

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Post by boredatwork » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:53 pm

I thought leaders were a mixed bag in PG2 - the little bonus effects could be interesting, but there was a ride range of effectiveness from overpowered to completely useless.

This coupled with the randomness made them somewhat anti-climatic as far as your core forces went - if a favourite unit got a usefull leader then great! But much of the time it was a secondary unit getting a relatively pointless upgrade that had little or no impact in the game.

What really made it unenjoyble was *Enemy* leaders - A KV or T-34 tank early in the campaign with overwatch or using Superior Maneuver to bypass your zones of control to overrun an artillery or damaged infantry unit was no fun.




I think the best approach would be instead keep the leader (or Ace(?)) attributes somewhat generic and instead of having them spawn in a unit, instead have them spawn into pools (assuming you keep ground and air leaders seperate), to be assigned to be promoted to command specific units between scenarios.

Bonuses that would be worthy could include:

+1 move
+? attack
+? defense
+? spoting range
1/2 supply usage
reduce enemy entrenchment value
increase own entrenchment value
turn % suppression into kills
a % of suppression inflicted lasts entire round

Basically "stat ajusting" bonuses are ok but mechanic adjusting bonuses - recon movement, multiple attacks, overwatch, zone of control bypass, should, IMO be avoided.

Auras which provided stat bonuses for all units in range would also be acceptable.


As for numbers, assuming core forces aren't hard capped I think leaders should be capped based on #of scenarios in a campaign -
Not necessarily in a 1 to 1 predictable fashion but in such a way that will still guarantee that larger armies will be more poorly led while smaller armies will be that much more elite.

Obsolete
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Post by Obsolete » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:05 am

roflmao
No joke. The problem is that almost no one finishes a complete PG2 campaign (originals) in one sitting. So if you were playing on a Winblows box and it crashed, your units would lose bars down to a 500 exp unit, and there was no breaking above that anymore.

Some people consider this to be a bug, which it may be. But whatever the case, it sure was as close to a perfect counter re-load cheat if I ever saw one.
Image
Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

dave123
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Post by dave123 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:45 pm

I didn't like pg2 (loved pg1). Although I don't remember leaders, from this thread I can see that I probably did not like them, they sound silly.

Better to have an HQ that can provide morale bonus to units within it's area of control (say several hexes), or perhaps you could attach a limited number of units to the Hq like the Strategic Command franchise from Battlefront.

The Hq could count against your unit cap and you pay for it just like any other unit.

No cheating reloads with this system.

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Post by Xitax » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:10 pm

If people want to cheat-reload in a SP game, then I think "who cares?" Hopefully the balance will be good enough so that you don't *want* to reload. Imagine that I play a campaign scenario poorly and carry over a less-than-optimal force into the next scenario (something which I think may have been addressed from reading that interview on Gameshark), I would have had a more difficult time in the next scenario in PG, therefore some motivation to save scum for good die rolls just to make it.

In any case, without the specific knowledge of Panzer Corps' game balance, any discussion on leader implementation can only go so far. Obviously, leaders should be designed to be both interesting and balanced, something that PG2 did not quite do right. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the game to see how it all works - have high hopes for this one.

Cheers!

dave123
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Post by dave123 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:08 pm

Agreed, who cares if you reload an sp game, I was speaking of PBEM.

Actually, PG1 didn't have leaders and was great anyway.

soldier
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Post by soldier » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:14 am

Gotta watch out for those "reload cheaters" :roll: lol

I think the hq unit idea could work well with a game like PG and might be a fairer and easier system too. I remain a bit sceptical about leaders with special abilities and such but it sounds like the decision has been made. Hope they get it right

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Post by HBalck » Tue May 10, 2011 3:06 am

I would like animated leaderheads with historical faces - like Manstein, Guderian, Shukov, Budjonny etc. - little briefings are fine or different 3d pictures for all the leaders.
Here is an example of my art design:
Image

H.Balck

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Post by Sonator » Tue May 10, 2011 4:45 pm

I wish to have spoken briefings like original PG1. Leaders are an option for a possible Panzer Corps 2 one day.

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Post by JMLiege » Mon May 16, 2011 8:19 am

Hi everyone,

I've just started playing the BETA.

**** REMOVED - ALL FEEDBACK TO BETA FORUMS! ****

Here's some idea of bonuses.

This core HQ could provide more defense/attak bonus on surrounding core troops (leveling - higher the level, biggest is the influence range); it can request some non core unit for a amount of turns, and so on...

Remember that the idea is that you are the main leader (the panzer general...) - so its presence on the front could be a real improvment on PG.

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Post by IainMcNeil » Mon May 16, 2011 9:14 am

Please put all beta feedback in the appropriate forums!

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