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New Traits

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:02 pm
by blitzer64
Hi, where can I find an explanation for these new traits: minefield, minesweeper, minekiller, glider, nozoc, reconmove.
Thanks

Re: New Traits

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:31 pm
by Rudankort
"minefield" trait is used by minefields. These units have some special properties, for example they are hard to spot, slow down friendly movement and trigger ambushes even though they do not have active attacks. "minesweeper" unit can destroy a minefield in a single attack. "minekiller" unit cannot remove the minefield in one go, but still can do some damage to it (e. g. artillery or ship could bombard it). All other units cause and take 1 point of damage when attacking minefields.

"glider" is a special trait of air transports which allows them to land any units, not just paratroopers, on any free hex on the map (not just airfields).

"nozoc" is pretty self-explanatory - such units do not project ZOC on 6 neighboring hexes around them, so enemy units can freely move around them. Also, such units do not prevent supply/reinforcements of nearby enemy units.

"reconmove" allows any unit to use recon (phased) movement. Or, when applied to recon, it cancels its special trait.

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:43 am
by fsx
Please, add the transportation "traits" and terrain (lowsup. strait) - traits.

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:53 am
by dragos
Rudankort wrote: "glider" is a special trait of air transports which allows them to land any units, not just paratroopers, on any free hex on the map (not just airfields).
Gliders can transport any unit, even Kingtigers? :shock:

IMO only infantry and some light artillery should be transported by gliders, and they should be allowed to land only in open terrain.

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:01 pm
by huertgenwald
Gliders can transport any unit, even Kingtigers? :shock:
Or Karl Geraete ? :twisted:

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:34 pm
by Rudankort
dragos wrote: Gliders can transport any unit, even Kingtigers? :shock: IMO only infantry and some light artillery should be transported by gliders
That depends on eqp file settings. For every unit and every transport it is configurable independently if the they are compatible between themselves or not. "glider" trait affects only transport's ability to disembark outside the airports, that's all.
dragos wrote: and they should be allowed to land only in open terrain.
This might make sense, yes.

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:01 am
by Chris10
The biggest transport plane of WWII was the german Messerschmitt 323 Gigant which had a carryweight of 11.000 kg...but...if towed by a Heinkel-He 111-Z "Zwilling" with double hull and five engines and when using additional rockets for take off, german crews have achieved a total transport weight of 22.000 kg...that would still fit a Pz IIIE (aprox 20t)

He-111 Z Zwilling
Image
Image

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:04 am
by soldier
that would still fit a Pz IIIE (aprox 20t)
:shock:
That's very interesting and may be statistically possible, but would be reliant on many other factors and seems pretty unlikely if actually possible at all. It sure is one big plane for its time though

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:57 am
by Chris10
soldier wrote:
that would still fit a Pz IIIE (aprox 20t)
:shock:
That's very interesting and may be statistically possible, but would be reliant on many other factors and seems pretty unlikely if actually possible at all. It sure is one big plane for its time though
The actual planning of the Me-323 required transport ability for either
# 8,8 cm Falk with Sdkfz9 FAMO
# 1 x Pz III or Pz IV
# 130 full equipped combat troops
The plane was made for an overweight of up to 27t and the planes hull structure supported all the concentration of the weight on a relative small area if neccessary...so a PzIII could have been lifted with the Me-323

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:02 pm
by Jelinobas
chris10 wrote:The biggest transport plane of WWII was the german Messerschmitt 323 Gigant which had a carryweight of 11.000 kg...but...if towed by a Heinkel-He 111-Z "Zwilling" with double hull and five engines and when using additional rockets for take off, german crews have achieved a total transport weight of 22.000 kg...that would still fit a Pz IIIE (aprox 20t)

He-111 Z Zwilling
Image
Image
Glider was the Me 321 with max Load 22t and "overload" 27t
Image
Me 323 was motorised with max Load 16,5t
Image

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:10 pm
by VPaulus
More about the new traits in here:
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36352

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:34 pm
by Chris10
Chris10 wrote: The plane was made for an overweight of up to 27t and the planes hull structure supported all the concentration of the weight on a relative small area if neccessary...so a PzIII could have been lifted with the Me-323
Jelinobas wrote: Glider was the Me 321 with max Load 22t and "overload" 27t
I said that in order to point out that the planes structure would have supported a tank...and since the glider and the motorized version were the same plane with same structure its irrelevant who is who. :P
Jelinobas wrote: Me 323 was motorised with max Load 16,5t
well..yes and no...the max take off mass was 45.600 kg while the empty plane was 29.000 kg...
the 16t are only a theoretical figure since empty weight is not = operational weight so the effectice carry weight was around 11t too,
similar to the glider

Anyway...
Me-323 have been overloaded with up to 22t but have been unable to take off...thats why He-111z were used to tow them in order to provide the neccessary take off velocity...additionally they had to use take off rockets to provide the needed thrust

Re: New Traits

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:42 pm
by Jelinobas
It does not matter. The Me 323 is not a glider. It is a self-powered aircraft for start alone without help from towing aircraft or missiles. And was to land at airfields in meadow. Not as a glider in any open area.
The glider for this role was the Me 321 with rockets and towing He 111Z. Seems this is wrong in 1.10. :roll:

Re: New Traits

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:14 am
by Chris10
Jelinobas wrote:It does not matter. The Me 323 is not a glider. It is a self-powered aircraft for start alone without help from towing aircraft or missiles. And was to land at airfields in meadow. Not as a glider in any open area.
The glider for this role was the Me 321 with rockets and towing He 111Z. Seems this is wrong in 1.10. :roll:
errrrr...I did not say it was a glider... :wink: ..I dunno, whats your point ?
Me-323 could not take off when overloaded and He-111z had been used with help of rockets to bring these into the air so they could continue by their own means...This has nothing to do with the glider Me-321...so I ask you why you keep arguing here? :roll: My initial comment had nothing to do with the Glider but only with transport capacity and what the theoretical maximum would be since somebody has thrown Tiger II into the ring which is absurd indeed :mrgreen:

Re: New Traits

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:18 am
by Jelinobas
chris10 wrote:
Jelinobas wrote:It does not matter. The Me 323 is not a glider. It is a self-powered aircraft for start alone without help from towing aircraft or missiles. And was to land at airfields in meadow. Not as a glider in any open area.
The glider for this role was the Me 321 with rockets and towing He 111Z. Seems this is wrong in 1.10. :roll:
errrrr...I did not say it was a glider... :wink: ..I dunno, whats your point ?
Me-323 could not take off when overloaded and He-111z had been used with help of rockets to bring these into the air so they could continue by their own means...This has nothing to do with the glider Me-321...so I ask you why you keep arguing here? :roll: My initial comment had nothing to do with the Glider but only with transport capacity and what the theoretical maximum would be since somebody has thrown Tiger II into the ring which is absurd indeed :mrgreen:
I not mean you, Chris. :oops:
My point is i not understand, question to Siltherine, is the trait glide assignet to the ME 323? And it is in Patch 1.10 a glider?
If "yes" then is this a big Error. :shock:

I agree with you, Chris. Those AirTransports should limitet by unitweight in use thir historical weight and/or height, width and depth. Also all Panzer IV based SdKfz's are the max for airlifting. All others to heavy and/or to big.

Re: New Traits

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:03 am
by fsx
I think, glider is only a trait that says, the aircraft could land at some terrain (not only at airports).
And you could define a sub-transport for different units can be loaded in such a aircraft. For Me323 (all) units with weight of 16,5 tons or lower.

It not depending at the engine (with/without) but on the possibility to land somewhere.

Wir k├Ânnen uch deutsch im DMP-Forum reden, jelinobas.