Early strategy AK

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AgentTBC
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Early strategy AK

Post by AgentTBC » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:33 pm

I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but do people suggest disbanding some of your garbage corps Italian units after the first scenario and replacing them with German ones? That Italian fighter, for example, is crap. 5 initiative? Great, you can go get your butt kicked by some hurricanes.

Difficulty: I'm playing Rommel difficulty so prestige early is a little tight. I assume that will ease later as in the base game where you end up swimming in prestige no matter what you do. Unless you're bad, I mean.

robman
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by robman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:34 pm

I traded in the Italian fighter at the start of scenario #3. I would have done it at the start of #2 but you can't deploy any aircraft in that one. I decided to keep the other Italian units until they die, but not to pamper them. Most of the armor is already gone. I upgraded the infantry to Bersaglieri with trucks in the course of the first scenario. They are pretty tough.

I'm playing on FM. Easy going as of the end of scenario #3. I assume I am being lulled into a false sense of security.

Vaughn
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Vaughn » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:36 pm

I'm playing on FM and I made the decision to keep the Italian units till they died. I do not know if it was the right decision.

I still have one tank, two infantry, and the arty as of the beginning of Gazala Line, however they are constantly sending me into a rage and making me scream like Sam Kinison at the computer. My core is beat up all to hell and I'm out of prestige. As of this scenario I have started a death spiral and I foresee a loss coming real soon.

So far, Afrika Korps has really challenged me. I'm pretty sure I'm struggling because the Italian units are deadweight on on my core. Although, I'm sure the improved AI and a heavy-handed run of bad luck is part of it too.

Resolute
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Resolute » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:47 pm

The tanks are actually ok for finishing units off and covering your rear. I usually get rid off the infantry straight away since I usally go for pioneers in order to have some units being able to clear mine fields with minimal losses. The arty has to go as well since I don't think you can upgrade it past a truck and just takes too much damage from airborne units while being towed. The air unit is not too bad especially after the first upgrade but it def. lacks fire power.

In general AC plays vastly different. Heavy entrenched units and especially a really strong air opponent. Air superiority is still doable to some extent but I don't think it's worth the prestige. I even started using AA units which I never did in any of the DLCs - I like it though :)

VPaulus
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by VPaulus » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:36 pm

For those interested, you can follow a discussion about Germans vs. italians in the core, during beta testing:
viewtopic.php?f=148&t=35794

Kamerer
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Kamerer » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:32 am

Difficulty: I'm playing Rommel difficulty so prestige early is a little tight. I assume that will ease later as in the base game where you end up swimming in prestige no matter what you do. Unless you're bad, I mean.
I played through the final beta version on Rommel. It was very hard to make any Italian units work at that level except the Bersaglieri and the Sahariana (very useful unit when it becomes available).

I tried also to play through on Manstein but that was a nightmare after three or four scenarios - I gave that up!

Bonners
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Bonners » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:17 am

I've also looked at this from the start and made the decision that I wanted to have at least a flavour of historical accuracy with the mix of Italian and German units. Knowing my limitations as a player I'm playing my first run through on the second easiest level, but I'm handicapping myself by making sure I use a mix of Italian and German units. My rule for new units so far has been Italian, German, Italian, German etc.. Similarly when setting up replacements at the end of each scenario I've been doing an even mix between the two.

I guess AK is again showing the beauty of the system. Certainly at the easier levels the choice of how you play is up to you. I'm sure once I start a play through at a harder level my self imposed restrictions will fly out the window and I'll be having the latest and best German tanks!

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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by ThvN » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:38 am

Those shiny Panzers sure seem attractive after watching Italian tanks take a beating if left without support. Since VPaulus allowed you take a look at the debate we had during the beta (betadebate?) I might as well repeat my question here:

I have been investigating the capabilities of Italian hardware, would it be welcomed if I made a simple mod with some tweaked stats in the eqp file and/or add some extra units? It won't make life for the Italian units easier I'm afraid, as some of their units are already quite a bit stronger in the stats than actual combat results would suggest, but it might make them more interesting. I have a lot of numbers floating around in my brain after reading up on them during the beta. If any modders would like suggestions or stats on Italian units, I have quite a few. And yes, some Italian units will get worse... :oops:

Other than that, it is a nice challenge to try using them for as long as possible.

Naxor
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Naxor » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:30 pm

I also play on FM and yes most of the italian units are crap. One nice pick up is SM.79 tactical bomber. I found it very fun to use. Good fuel/damage ratio. After four scenarios im still using my m14/41 tanks mainly because i got +2 attack heroes for both of them. :)

AgentTBC
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by AgentTBC » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:01 pm

That Italian level bomber that comes available in the third mission seems very nice compared to the available german ones. Is the problem the upgrade path?

krugec
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by krugec » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:01 am

You can upgrade the italian units.

The italian fighter when upgraded is on par with bf109.
The strategic bomber is better then German units and has a spotting range of 2. 100+ fuel
The tactical bomber has naval attack 7. 100+ fuel
The Bersaglieri are good.
The Sahariana is a better recon due to allied air supremacy (spitfire)

You get an anti tank with 20 Hard attack much sooner then elefant/nashorn.
In general the italian units cost less prestige.

Im not sure why, but my Italian self propelled artillery has +5 attack hero. (1 hero)

krugec
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by krugec » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:08 am

ThvN wrote:Those shiny Panzers sure seem attractive after watching Italian tanks take a beating if left without support. Since VPaulus allowed you take a look at the debate we had during the beta (betadebate?) I might as well repeat my question here:

I have been investigating the capabilities of Italian hardware, would it be welcomed if I made a simple mod with some tweaked stats in the eqp file and/or add some extra units? It won't make life for the Italian units easier I'm afraid, as some of their units are already quite a bit stronger in the stats than actual combat results would suggest, but it might make them more interesting. I have a lot of numbers floating around in my brain after reading up on them during the beta. If any modders would like suggestions or stats on Italian units, I have quite a few. And yes, some Italian units will get worse... :oops:

Other than that, it is a nice challenge to try using them for as long as possible.
In the first couple of maps, the german panzer III/IV aren't that much stronger then Italian tanks. I lost both tanks after a while because when in doubt send the cannon fodder first.

KdF
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by KdF » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:31 pm

I concur, unless you want to play with some historical accuracy, or want a big challenge, keep the Italians. For me, I've been replacing the Italian infantry and tanks with anything German. When you have to beat your way through many units like in Race to the Wire, every slot is crucial. And when it comes down to it, I don't want a unit that cleans up the leftovers, I want units that put you in a hurt locker. (Stallone)

ThvN
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by ThvN » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:32 pm

krugec wrote: You can upgrade the italian units.
the upgrade path for a lot of Italian units is slower and with less improvement, so they slowly start lagging behind the latest German hardware. But the devs have implemented some extra's to keep them useful later on.
The italian fighter when upgraded is on par with bf109.
The strategic bomber is better then German units and has a spotting range of 2. 100+ fuel
The tactical bomber has naval attack 7. 100+ fuel
The Bersaglieri are good.
The Sahariana is a better recon due to allied air supremacy (spitfire)
Funny question, but have you tried pressing the 'switch' button on the Sahariana? 8) What's your opinion on the usefullness of the switchability?
You get an anti tank with 20 Hard attack much sooner then elefant/nashorn.
In general the italian units cost less prestige.

Im not sure why, but my Italian self propelled artillery has +5 attack hero. (1 hero)
Did you happen to pick up this unit during a scenario called 'Second Offensive' ? Or did it get the hero by itself?

AgentTBC wrote:That Italian level bomber that comes available in the third mission seems very nice compared to the available german ones. Is the problem the upgrade path?
Ah, the Piaggio. Very nice, but let's just say it's a keeper... And yes, for some unit types the upgrade path is somewhat limited, but in real life it was much, much worse. The interesting is, I found out that if I forced myself to keep using them, it actually improved my gameplay, because making mistakes with them hurts more. A nice little challenge, like KdF said:

KdF wrote:I concur, unless you want to play with some historical accuracy, or want a big challenge, keep the Italians. For me, I've been replacing the Italian infantry and tanks with anything German. When you have to beat your way through many units like in Race to the Wire, every slot is crucial. And when it comes down to it, I don't want a unit that cleans up the leftovers, I want units that put you in a hurt locker. (Stallone)
And that is what I think is a nice feature of AK. You can choose to buy the best Panzers, or have a few Carro Armato tag along, or you can try to play with as many Italian units as possible. You can also have a lot of units and alter your core composition for each scenario. The players can decide for themselves, there is no 'wrong' method, just use what you like best.

AgentTBC
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by AgentTBC » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:23 pm

My strategy in Panzer Corps tended to the VICTORY THROUGH AIRPOWER school, where I would sweep the skies clear and eliminate all the new airplanes that showed up the turn they appeared, letting my bombers wreak havoc on the poor, poor Russians below. This wasn't difficult with 12 ME262s or whatever. You almost felt bad for the Yaks.

That doesn't seem likely in AK. Are tac bombers even viable? You clearly have to keep an escort next to them or watch them go bye bye, so that's basically 700 or 800 prestige dedicated to softening up one unit a turn, plus another 200 or whatever for the mobile AA to protect your units since your fighters are guarding bombers... that's an awful lot of your core.

Did people on the higher difficulty levels (Rommel, Manstein, etc) go full defensive on airpower? With the limited number of core slots I feel like half my corps would have to be fighters, bombers, and AA to maintain any kind of reasonable attempt at contesting the skies, at which point you're either skimping on artillery or tanks.

KdF
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by KdF » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:59 pm

Agreed. In AK enemy air power comes from nowhere and there's a lot of it. Leave a bomber alone and kiss it it goodbye. Just fighters seems to be working well. By Dash to the Wire I've been getting away with only 3 (1 Italian) keeping many slots open for ground units. If history serves me right, I'm going to need a heck of a lot more once I get to Malta. Let's hope Goering has the stomach for it this time around.

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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by Razz1 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:30 am

What's wrong with this guy?
+4 Attack

Always kicks ass.

It use to be attacked once per turn now it is twice per turn.

14 strength, two heros

1st defence -4, -3 on Allied tank

2nd defense -2, -2 on Allied infantry

When it's my turn...
I can mop up the tank and infantry

When it is not attacked, I can march up to a city and go toe to toe, and then kick our the defender over time.

So why give up Italian units?

Learn to work with them and they will reward you.
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krugec
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by krugec » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:41 am

ThvN wrote:
krugec wrote: You can upgrade the italian units.
the upgrade path for a lot of Italian units is slower and with less improvement, so they slowly start lagging behind the latest German hardware. But the devs have implemented some extra's to keep them useful later on.
The italian fighter when upgraded is on par with bf109.
The strategic bomber is better then German units and has a spotting range of 2. 100+ fuel
The tactical bomber has naval attack 7. 100+ fuel
The Bersaglieri are good.
The Sahariana is a better recon due to allied air supremacy (spitfire)
Funny question, but have you tried pressing the 'switch' button on the Sahariana? 8) What's your opinion on the usefullness of the switchability?
You get an anti tank with 20 Hard attack much sooner then elefant/nashorn.
In general the italian units cost less prestige.

Im not sure why, but my Italian self propelled artillery has +5 attack hero. (1 hero)
Did you happen to pick up this unit during a scenario called 'Second Offensive' ? Or did it get the hero by itself?

AgentTBC wrote:That Italian level bomber that comes available in the third mission seems very nice compared to the available german ones. Is the problem the upgrade path?
Ah, the Piaggio. Very nice, but let's just say it's a keeper... And yes, for some unit types the upgrade path is somewhat limited, but in real life it was much, much worse. The interesting is, I found out that if I forced myself to keep using them, it actually improved my gameplay, because making mistakes with them hurts more. A nice little challenge, like KdF said:

KdF wrote:I concur, unless you want to play with some historical accuracy, or want a big challenge, keep the Italians. For me, I've been replacing the Italian infantry and tanks with anything German. When you have to beat your way through many units like in Race to the Wire, every slot is crucial. And when it comes down to it, I don't want a unit that cleans up the leftovers, I want units that put you in a hurt locker. (Stallone)
And that is what I think is a nice feature of AK. You can choose to buy the best Panzers, or have a few Carro Armato tag along, or you can try to play with as many Italian units as possible. You can also have a lot of units and alter your core composition for each scenario. The players can decide for themselves, there is no 'wrong' method, just use what you like best.
WHAT THE HELL Sahariana has a switch option? :D

Yes I recieved 2 italian self propelled guns as reinforcment in one scenario. One came with +5 attack hero and the other with +1 movement hero.

Italian self propelled artillery when upgraded is well armored like a brumbar, and has range 2.
The bersaglieri can be downgraded to alpini for free, and back for 40 prestige, althou they got initiative 1, its still useful for some maps with high mountains or hills to break out from.

The only units wich are inferior are tanks and anti-tank, but only after the last versions of PzIII/IV appear. And theyre much cheaper then german machines.

krugec
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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by krugec » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:52 am

AgentTBC wrote:My strategy in Panzer Corps tended to the VICTORY THROUGH AIRPOWER school, where I would sweep the skies clear and eliminate all the new airplanes that showed up the turn they appeared, letting my bombers wreak havoc on the poor, poor Russians below. This wasn't difficult with 12 ME262s or whatever. You almost felt bad for the Yaks.

That doesn't seem likely in AK. Are tac bombers even viable? You clearly have to keep an escort next to them or watch them go bye bye, so that's basically 700 or 800 prestige dedicated to softening up one unit a turn, plus another 200 or whatever for the mobile AA to protect your units since your fighters are guarding bombers... that's an awful lot of your core.

Did people on the higher difficulty levels (Rommel, Manstein, etc) go full defensive on airpower? With the limited number of core slots I feel like half my corps would have to be fighters, bombers, and AA to maintain any kind of reasonable attempt at contesting the skies, at which point you're either skimping on artillery or tanks.
12 fighters ? Thats a serious overkill.

The AI in AK is better, it will destroy your escort fighters and your bomber all in one turn. Because it has alot of quality planes available. I tried to train new fighters when better machines became available, but at Persia I gave up on that idea, and disbanded them back for prestige. I use 2 fighters, 2 flak 88, and use 2-3 mobile aa units per scenario (wich usually get crushed by armor in a suprise attack).I play on Rommel. My airforce (1 bf109,1 italian plane,1 stuka, 1 italian tacbomb, 1 italian stratbomb) sits on a safe airport most of the time, and after I feel I did considerable dmg to the enemy fighters, or when I notice their fuel is low, they swoop in for 2 turns of action and then back to hiding.

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Re: Early strategy AK

Post by robman » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:11 pm

The RAF is serious business in AK. I bought a Stuka early on and disbanded it in favor of a 110 after one scenario that it barely survived. AA helps. The little fast halftracked AA doesn't have much of a punch but it can sure move in the desert.

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