What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

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dumbttt
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What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by dumbttt » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:40 pm

How do you use these guys effectively? It seems pointless to me to have an artillery that must be right next to the enemy to fire.

shawkhan
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by shawkhan » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:04 pm

I use them defensively by placing them behind units that advance faster than the towed artillery.
On the attack, I move them adjacent to the target unit to supppress before other units attack.
Better defense, and more ammo,movement than sturmpanzer.

Dragoon.
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Dragoon. » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:35 am

Speaking from the German perspective. You will notice that range 1 artillery is usually heavily armored. With ground defense 10 on units become resistant and with 15 almost immune to artillery fire. This makes them perfect units to shield your advancing units or defensive lines from enemy attacks. They are like a good wall, with them the AI won't often every try to attack your units, thus saving you a lot prestige from repairs.

Most other artillery units have abysmal ground defense values thus will become quickly target of counter artillery fire. Suppressed or destroyed artillery won't do you any good.
Towed guns are very bad as they all have a GD of 2 and are soft targets. Most SPG's have a GD between 2-4. They are hard targets so it's not so bad as with towed guns, still already a ~10 cm barreled artillery has a hard attack of 6, 15cm guns a HA of 9. Keep that in mind.

Should the AI attack anyway it will cost him dearly. You may notice that many Russian AI units have only a sight of 1. Conscripts, SMG infantry most AT guns and AT tanks can't not see the defensive artillery behind your units unless else spotted it for them. Imagine the surprise when they go inf for a cheap attack. So get rid of any Russian recon unit trying to peep.

However from late '42 on these units become less important as by then you're tanks have decent ground defense vales that they can hold the line by themselves. Tiger 1 GD 23!!!, Panther GD 18, PzIVG GD 14. For comparison Pz38 GD 6, PzIIIF GD 8, PzIVD GD 6.
Still valuable backup for infantry trying to hold rough terrain.

Zhivago
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:07 am

The short-range, heavy armored stug arty, and later the Brumbar, are fantastic weapons and gain experience quick. They offer great mobile defense for your attacking units, and are great for softening up entrenched targets when you are going in for the kill. I usually end up having at least 3 or 4 in more corps by 1943.

One question I have is whether or not anyone has ever gotten a hero with a range bonus for these 1-hex arty pieces. I have never had it happen--only to my long range arty.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by KeldorKatarn » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:41 pm

Watch deducters videos on youtube. He gets a StuG in the DLC40 and keeps using them from then on. He shows how to use them VERY effectively. I'm using them myself now and StuGs are nearly invulnerable to infantry unless in close terrain. They have no problems holding the line next to your regular units. just make sure the artillery versions of StuGs are not attacked by heavier tanks. But other than that, they're fine. But deducter shows very often in his videos on how to use them up front and still end up with them being protected by your units in the same turn. You just have to make sure the unit you bombarded ends up being destroyed.

johndoe2
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by johndoe2 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:13 pm

Zhivago wrote:One question I have is whether or not anyone has ever gotten a hero with a range bonus for these 1-hex arty pieces. I have never had it happen--only to my long range arty.
I don't remember BUT have upgraded from long range 21 with hero to StuG. It's worth the prestige spent :D

Zhivago
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:26 pm

johndoe2 wrote:
Zhivago wrote:One question I have is whether or not anyone has ever gotten a hero with a range bonus for these 1-hex arty pieces. I have never had it happen--only to my long range arty.
I don't remember BUT have upgraded from long range 21 with hero to StuG. It's worth the prestige spent :D
That's a good idea! I'll have to try it sometime. A stug or brumbar with +2 range (or perhaps more) would be devastating.

Dragoon.
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Dragoon. » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:45 pm

But you should think what a + range hero would do good on other units instead. Sure with 16 GD a Brumbar is virtually immune to artillery fire but beside that it has nothing special to offer or? It still has the standard attack values of all 15cm gun (12sa 9hd). Don't' get me wrong it's a great unit in defensive scenarios and where you want make sure your 2nd line arty don't get suppressed putting your first line defenders at risk, but it don't need a ranged hero for that. As German commander there are enough other options of 15cm guns. For example a Hummel with 4 range is perfect to take out entrenched positions with AA and arty guns next to each other. If you need a defense arty for an offensive how about the Grille? Sure it only has 4 movement and 4 rounds but still it posses a range attack of 4, but as a hard target with GD 10 it's enough to withstand enemy arty fire up to 15cm. (Remember HA 9?)

I also like a 17cm towed gun with a ranged hero for extra fire power and ammo supply. Usually I my first ranged hero goes to that. A good option on the offense when attacking big entrenched positions, a perfect option in defense scenarios as hotspot gun to partially suppress bigger Russian tanks. But my real favorite is the Wurfrahmen with it devastating 20 SA. Having an overstrength WR is a real bane for any soft target especially Russian elite Guard infantry, towed AT guns and 85mm AA guns. Unfortunately they have the worst ground defense valve of all hard target SPG's. The pair of ground defense 2 with range 2 just call for an enemy SPG to move up and shoot them. With a ranged hero they can take aim at priority targets from safety like your Hummel's.

Zhivago
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:22 am

Dragoon wrote:But you should think what a + range hero would do good on other units instead. Sure with 16 GD a Brumbar is virtually immune to artillery fire but beside that it has nothing special to offer or? It still has the standard attack values of all 15cm gun (12sa 9hd). Don't' get me wrong it's a great unit in defensive scenarios and where you want make sure your 2nd line arty don't get suppressed putting your first line defenders at risk, but it don't need a ranged hero for that. As German commander there are enough other options of 15cm guns. For example a Hummel with 4 range is perfect to take out entrenched positions with AA and arty guns next to each other. If you need a defense arty for an offensive how about the Grille? Sure it only has 4 movement and 4 rounds but still it posses a range attack of 4, but as a hard target with GD 10 it's enough to withstand enemy arty fire up to 15cm. (Remember HA 9?)

I also like a 17cm towed gun with a ranged hero for extra fire power and ammo supply. Usually I my first ranged hero goes to that. A good option on the offense when attacking big entrenched positions, a perfect option in defense scenarios as hotspot gun to partially suppress bigger Russian tanks. But my real favorite is the Wurfrahmen with it devastating 20 SA. Having an overstrength WR is a real bane for any soft target especially Russian elite Guard infantry, towed AT guns and 85mm AA guns. Unfortunately they have the worst ground defense valve of all hard target SPG's. The pair of ground defense 2 with range 2 just call for an enemy SPG to move up and shoot them. With a ranged hero they can take aim at priority targets from safety like your Hummel's.
If you have not discovered the attack and defensive qualities of the Stug and Brumbar already, then you are playing the game with one hand tied behind your back.

robman
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by robman » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Dragoon wrote:But my real favorite is the Wurfrahmen with it devastating 20 SA. Having an overstrength WR is a real bane for any soft target especially Russian elite Guard infantry, towed AT guns and 85mm AA guns. Unfortunately they have the worst ground defense valve of all hard target SPG's. The pair of ground defense 2 with range 2 just call for an enemy SPG to move up and shoot them. With a ranged hero they can take aim at priority targets from safety like your Hummel's.
That's a good solution, but it still leaves the Wurf vulnerable to air attacks and sneaky flanking movements. An alternative is to cross-grade a Wurf to the armored Maultier launcher when it becomes available. The Maultier has a lower soft attack than the Wurf, but its defense values are much higher and it gets an extra shot. In other words, the Maultier does less damage per attack, but it stays in action much more consistently and so attacks more often.

Zhivago
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:19 pm

robman wrote:
Dragoon wrote:But my real favorite is the Wurfrahmen with it devastating 20 SA. Having an overstrength WR is a real bane for any soft target especially Russian elite Guard infantry, towed AT guns and 85mm AA guns. Unfortunately they have the worst ground defense valve of all hard target SPG's. The pair of ground defense 2 with range 2 just call for an enemy SPG to move up and shoot them. With a ranged hero they can take aim at priority targets from safety like your Hummel's.
That's a good solution, but it still leaves the Wurf vulnerable to air attacks and sneaky flanking movements. An alternative is to cross-grade a Wurf to the armored Maultier launcher when it becomes available. The Maultier has a lower soft attack than the Wurf, but its defense values are much higher and it gets an extra shot. In other words, the Maultier does less damage per attack, but it stays in action much more consistently and so attacks more often.
I agree. The wurf (and its towed cousins) might have an awesome hard attack, but they are incredibly vulnerable to enemy air and ground units. Furthermore, the later you get into the Eastern Front (or even Western Front) campaigns, you are facing hordes of armor, which the wurfs are essentially useless against. That is where the stug and brumbars shine, as they provide solid back-up to armor attacks, and can take a hit on their own from strong enemy armor and survive. I find myself moving more and more away from towed arty because you can't move and fire--only shoot and fire, whereas mobile arty can move and fire, and be moved into place to back up other units. It is nice to have more rounds to fire with some towed arty units, but for very mobile attacks, or mobile defenses, mobile arty my choice.

dumbttt
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by dumbttt » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:54 pm

The SU-122 may be the best answer to our issue, it has awesome ground defense, doubles as AT and has range of 3. Simply awesome! I think it's better than Stug42.

I agree with the move away from towed artillery. I have a towed unit from Poland and a self-propelled unit that I commissioned in late 41, the self-propelled has scored more kills than the towed, even though it's been in service for half the time.

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by soldier » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:14 am

I agree with the move away from towed artillery.
I always buy a few towed artillery pieces and have pretty good success with them either online or in campaign. They are tricky to use but have some advantages in price, ammo and are also less susceptible to air strikes. Like any unit they struggle against masses of ISU's with their super range. To be honest i think there's a time and place for all gun types, towed, mobile or armoured so its about using the right tools for the right job. at the right time.

I'ts sad to hear so many talk of moving away from towed units. Artillery suppression itself is probably a factor. Soft units in Panzer Corp seem super sensitive to an artillery artillery strike and one hit often leaves them unable to defend themselves and likely to fall back in disorder. If they could hang in there a bit longer there would be more use for them.

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:51 am

soldier wrote:
I agree with the move away from towed artillery.
I always buy a few towed artillery pieces and have pretty good success with them either online or in campaign. They are tricky to use but have some advantages in price, ammo and are also less susceptible to air strikes. Like any unit they struggle against masses of ISU's with their super range. To be honest i think there's a time and place for all gun types, towed, mobile or armoured so its about using the right tools for the right job. at the right time.

I'ts sad to hear so many talk of moving away from towed units. Artillery suppression itself is probably a factor. Soft units in Panzer Corp seem super sensitive to an artillery artillery strike and one hit often leaves them unable to defend themselves and likely to fall back in disorder. If they could hang in there a bit longer there would be more use for them.
Towed artillery is a casualty of mobile warfare. If you could load a towed artillery unit, move it to the desired position you want to fire from, unload it, and then fire (all in the course of one turn), I would be all for using more towed artillery. However, when you are pressing the attack and covering ground quickly, the towed arty tends to straggle behind. It's just the way it is.

dumbttt
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by dumbttt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Towed artillery are more useful in defense, but even then, the self-propelled ones have the advantage of being able to quickly redeployed to another location in the defense line. A towed artillery will not able to unload and provide defensive fire until the turn after the move.

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Vaughn » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:13 pm

Sorry to come in late on this thread. I had nothing to add until now.

I was playing with my stugs and suddenly remembered that many of the range 1 artys have bunker busting qualities. Yet another reason to love them.

Dragoon.
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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Dragoon. » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:42 am

What haven't been mentioned yet is that the Brumbär has only a rate of fire of 80% which is the same low rof as for the towed 15cm gun. For comparison all other 15cm caliber SPG's have 90% (Sturmpanzer, Grille, Hummel).

Other notable SPG's: StugIII & StugIV 110%, StuH42 100%

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by ThvN » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:55 am

To be complete, the sIG 33 II from the AK theatre also has RoF 8 (or 80%), so while the SA/HA is identical to the similar Sturmpanzer (they have the same gun) it does less damage. You can buy both fairly early on, and the sIG 33 II looks clearly superior to the Sturmpanzer (more move/fuel/ammo), but its RoF is 8 instead of the Sturmpanzers 9. Very sneaky.

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by dumbttt » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:44 am

Where do you get the ROF stats?

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Re: What's the point of artillery with range of 1?

Post by Zhivago » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:59 am

Dragoon wrote:What haven't been mentioned yet is that the Brumbär has only a rate of fire of 80% which is the same low rof as for the towed 15cm gun. For comparison all other 15cm caliber SPG's have 90% (Sturmpanzer, Grille, Hummel).

Other notable SPG's: StugIII & StugIV 110%, StuH42 100%
The Brumbar has a ground defense of 16, which is fantastic. It also has an air defense of 12, a soft attack of 12; a hard attack of 9, and moves 5 spaces per turn. It can take a hit from the strongest Allied tanks/AT/and fighters and keep delivering a butt kicking. I usually end up with at least three of them in my core (usually upgraded from StuH42's, which themselves were upgraded from StugIIIB's). I'm interested in mobility and survivability from 1943 onward, and the Brumbar delivers.

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