Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13521
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by IainMcNeil » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:07 pm

Hi Kramerer,

I'm very sorry you feel like that. We really appreciate every customer and every fan of our games and we go well out of our way to make them happy and you have many responses from us here so suggesting we are not dealing with the situation is very unfair. We are known for our great customer support. We just do not agree with your interpretation of events.

Here is the situation:
* You ordered a game
* A download link arrived 15 minutes later, possibly because of a problem with PayPal or maybe an email delay
* You asked for a refund because you had to wait 15 minutes
* We said that is not grounds for a refund.
* Our policy of no DRM and print on demand means we cannot accept returns or cancelled orders. We have no way to disable the game from your machine. To allow you to do this we would need an intrusive DRM such as Steam. We do not want to do that because our customers do not want to do that.

I understand you should not have had to wait 15 mins for your download link and apologies for the inconvenience but the vast majority of orders have no issues at all. We can't give you a refund because you beta tested other games - that's not fair to everyone else. It;s not that we don't appreciate your time - we really do but it would not be appropriate to offer different services to new customers and well known customers. We offer the same best level of service we can to everyone.

I'm not sure what the DR link is about - we don't work with DR?

Cheers

Iain

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Kamerer » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:11 pm

boredatwork wrote:
Kamerer wrote:There's nothing impolite here. It's all factual. Sorry if that offends you. The only really impolite thing is the responses, which ignore the situation and make an ad hominem attack. But if hearing the facts is impolite, please talk to your vendors, and not be rude to customers?
Right... characterising a 15 minute wait as an "atrocious delays" is OPINION, not a fact...
Let's be clear, I'm up to 20 or so emails with Slitherine/Plimus/Bluecrap trying to solve it. And no solution. So let's be democratic and have an open discussion, OK?

And yes, it's unacceptable in an instant e-commerce age. Especially if you read the first post about taking much more effort than that to set up a wired download. I get the impression you didn't read the whole thread. The focus here is that I LOVE Panzer Corps and would like to see it better, and this is constructive criticism in that regard. I think that point has been missed despite a few clear statements on my part. Partnering with a sloppy e-commerce vendor doesn't help a product. It does a lot of damage. That's the real discussion here.

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Kamerer » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:21 pm

IainMcNeil wrote:Hi Kramerer,

I'm very sorry you feel like that. We really appreciate every customer and every fan of our games and we go well out of our way to make them happy and you have many responses from us here so suggesting we are not dealing with the situation is very unfair. =

The quoted link is to your stated policy. I appreciate the response but it's still the "dog ate my homework" kind of response. "I don't like this happened, but yeah, that's how we roll." If you can't verify a product was received/downloaded, and don't want to trust your customers, I don't know how to respond. I understand there are privacy/invasive issues. Your decision is to side with making the customer guilty, regardless, is just that - your decision. A choice, not a forced policy.

I haven't asked for any treatment that ANY customer should not get. Your character insult that I am asking for a refund becuase I beta tested, etc. is not valid or professional. I did not lead with that, or mention it at all until later, and only to point out that I was a fan, but still offended. It was a qualification of the insult, not a predication for redress. I in no way insinuated or asked for a refund because of that, and did not mention that up front. Your characterization that I am using that for some advantage is poorly and wrongly applied.

If you no longer work with "DR" and now refute your guarantee, then take down that page and be transparent about not guaranteeing delivery and satisfaction? Just label your products "sold as-is, no guarantee or satisfaction implied." Just be transparent and honest. Also, the last email I got on this subject came from "slitherine.cs@digitalriver.com" So you really don't know anything about them? I have an email from them time stamped like an hour ago. You don't know work with them? As of like 50 minutes ago or something? this is getting weird...

Look, this is getting too personal and too petty. Forum formats tend to drive that. Let's get back to my points I was trying to make, from post #1:

A) Your e-commerce partner is desperately 10 years behind the curve.
B) Finding another partner, or alternate additional one, would improve sales.
C) There is no [strike]spoon[/strike]"C" ;)

So let's not be petty, and let's revisit the lessons here.
Last edited by Kamerer on Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

boredatwork
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:39 pm

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by boredatwork » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:22 pm

Kamerer wrote:Let's be clear, I'm up to 20 or so emails with Slitherine/Plimus/Bluecrap trying to solve it. And no solution. So let's be democratic and have an open discussion, OK?

And yes, it's unacceptable in an instant e-commerce age. Especially if you read the first post about taking much more effort than that to set up a wired download. I get the impression you didn't read the whole thread. The focus here is that I LOVE Panzer Corps and would like to see it better, and this is constructive criticism in that regard. I think that point has been missed despite a few clear statements on my part. Partnering with a sloppy e-commerce vendor doesn't help a product. It does a lot of damage. That's the real discussion here.
No I did read the whole thread and IMO you're still over reacting. I also LOVE Panzer Corps - I was in the Vanilla Beta test since day 1 and have bought every DLC for it to date. I also have had ZERO issues with either Plimus' or Slitherine's Customer Service. Despite your claims to the contrary, many small ecommerce service providers will often experience delays in processing orders. I just completed a transaction for model train parts that took 19 minutes from "approve" to receiving a confirmation e-mail. I don't see that as unusual or as something "damaging" and thus in the grand scheme of the game not a major issue.

Could their policy be more clearly worded? Perhaps, but I still fail to see how the terms "atrocious" or "incompetant" as being relavent or constructive to that discussion when in my OPINION slitherine/plimus is neither:

I paid $160 for World of Warcraft ($100 for the Collector's Edition, $60 for a 2 month Sub) and I had to wait 8 DAYS before I could play it because server stability was so crappy upon launch. THAT is atrocious and worth complaining about - though I didn't and Blizzard provided reasonable customer service by fixing the problem and providing compensation.

On the otherhand Warhammer Online's (which thankfully I didn't play) payment processor kept everyone's payment info on file and "accidently" multi-renewed 10,000s of cancelled subscriptions, without player knowledge leading to in many cases empty bank accounts/exceeded credit limits/bank overdraft fees that took WEEKS to sort out.... and then after "fixing" it, they did it again - THAT is an example of incompetance.

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Kamerer » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Hi boredatwork,

You have a higher tolerance for pain than I do! Frankly I loved Starcraft but I bowed out at WOW because it got silly. In fact, I like PC because it is NOT silly like WOW.

But holding up someone's failure to say "theirs was worse!" isn't really effective. There is a standard that if you take someone's money, you deliver the product. Escpecially a product where the customer goes to lengths to meet delivery - show up at the train station (18th century), be there in person (19th C.), plan on delivery in time for production or use (20th C.), or get wired and expect minimal delay (early 21st C.).

You have a high tolerance for pain. I do, too. But the ready (and not chosen) option of transparency here is worth commenting on. And I'm glad you responded; I in no way want to offend you personally. I want to point out ways PC could be better and sell more. And responding keeps this thread alive and viewed, so thanks.

Waffenamt
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Waffenamt » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:10 pm

I DEMAND my time back that I just wasted reading about this non-issue. I've waited longer for a drink that costed more and didn't give me anywhere near the bang-per-buck as anything in PC - and still left a tip! :roll:

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Kamerer » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:55 am

Colorful comment, but the exit is to the left .... ;)

So really, it's about transparency and honesty. Here's the policy published by Plimus/Bluesnap for vendors/etc. I quote directly, link below:
All BlueSnap merchants (product and service providers) are required to provide full, unconditional refunds to Customers up to 30 days from the day of purchase.
So I'm not sure what part of "unconditional" Slitherine finds "conditional." ;) I've received a lot of emails from them declining to honor it. With many weasel words involved. Like from Lordzimoa and Iain McNeil above. Why be a weasel? Why not just be honest? I really don't know. I have a lot of years of public, corporate, and educational industry experience. I really have no pattern or template to explain why this kind of corporate lying works. Guys?

Why be a weasel? why not be honest? I've pointed it out in emails but so far been treated with silence and public contempt. You've seen the corporate directors chime in above saying they don't feel bound by their published policies. I am a fan of the game, but I just want honesty and transparency. I'm going to be the fly in the ointment until somebody wakes up and treats customers with respect. Is it really so painful to follow your corporate, published policy? Your choice, not mine. Why be weasels? Why not start out being honest? Is that so painfully hard?



[url]http://www.bluesnap.com/ecommerce/legal/refun

nikivdd
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 4157
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by nikivdd » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:15 am

Sofar i hadn't any problems purchasing via the Slitherine and Matrixshop for which i am grateful. I always paid by credit card and the handling process went smooth and easy. Still, there are Belgian and European laws about e-commerce. If i would encounter any problem, i wouldn't hesitate to use them, since customers have rights too. There is such law that clients have 7 up to 14 days to reconsider their purchase, and you can demand a refund by sending a special letter to the seller. It is though not recommend to buy anything (anymore) from e-shops that doesn't offer the possibility to cancel, return purchased goods or do not abide by their policies. In such cases the customer can file a complaint to the European centre of consumers or in grave cases (like fraudy websites) to e-cops.
https://www.facebook.com/NikivddPanzerCorps/
https://www.youtube.com/user/Nikivdd1/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=dd

Wiber
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:34 am
Location: Australia (West)

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Wiber » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:06 am

Kamerer wrote:show up at the train station (18th century), be there in person (19th C.), plan on delivery in time for production or use (20th C.), or get wired and expect minimal delay (early 21st C.).
WTF dude. Get some perspective, you waited 15 minutes.

Also a refund is given when you return the goods. As these goods are shipped electronically there is no way to verify you have returned the goods. How do we know you did and that your just not trying to rip off Slitherine - makers of our favourite games.

Seriously though, It's time to draw a line in the sand, and get over it! :evil:

PS. I do not work for Slitherine or any associate or subsidiary. I am just bored of your whingeing.

Wiber

Mordan
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:26 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by Mordan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:57 am

Please start to Use BITCOINs !!! Internet Cash of the Future!

Wordpress, Reddit and Mega use Bitcoins. No more paypal and al.

usually 10 minutes confirmation. but transactions cannot be reversed.

FOARP
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:48 pm

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by FOARP » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:09 am

This thread is ridiculous. Some basic facts:

1) Banks, money transfering services can take a long time to transfer, and 15 minutes is in no way, shape, or form too long to wait for a transfer to go through. The reason why they do this is obvious - many services (e.g., Paypal) rake off the interest on the floating money going through their service, and the longer the money is there, the more money they earn. If you waqnt to get angry at anyone for the 15 minutes delay, get angry at the transferers.

2) You got what you paid for. Slitherine/Matrix gave you the game, they can't take it back. If you book a plane ticket or a hotel room and try to cancel at the last minute either they won't let you do it or they'll charge you for doing so - the reason is that they've already prepared the seat/room for you and can't sell it to another person so they need to cover their expenses. Similarly Slith/Matrix sold you the game, they can't take it back, they need to cover their expenses for doing so.

IainMcNeil
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 13521
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am

Re: Just cancelled my '42/'43 West purchase. Here's why...

Post by IainMcNeil » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:18 am

Hi guys

I understand Kamerer's frustration and it should not have happened, but we are not in a position to ensure that delays never happen and we do not have a DRM system that allows us to deactivate games once they are purchased (because our customers don't like them and neither do we).

There is nothing fundamentally broken with Plimus and we had all these issues before with DR and will have them again if we moved to someone else. This thread is not going anywhere and I don't want it to descend in to an attack on Kamerer so I cam going top lock it up.

Kamerer we are very sorry you are not happy with what happened but we do everything possible to ensure the quality of our service and hope that after a few days you'll be able to put this issue behind you and continue to enjoy the games.

Best Regards

Iain

Locked

Return to “Panzer Corps”