Unbelievable price !!!

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

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nats
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Unbelievable price !!!

Post by nats »

Just been sent the latest Slitherine email and was quite interested in Panzer Corps because it looks like a very old game I used to play called Panzer General - until I saw the price! Who are you trying to kid? Ive got to buy the original game at £28 and then an expansion at £28? That is absolutely ridiculous.

Ive just bought a superb game called Kerbal Space Program on Steam for £18 and many daft people are saying that game is overpriced and yet Ive got 160 hours of gameplay out of it so far and still find it superb. And here you lot are asking for £28 for a basic game that came out ages ago and then another £28 for an expansion?

Yeah right! You can forget that joke mateys. When you get real and price it realistically for the whole thing (ie around £15) give me a call.
"It's life Jim, but not as we know it"
lordzimoa
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by lordzimoa »

We have been reading some comments in our own forum and others with a great deal of interest and it strikes us that there are some misconceptions about our business model and where we stand on a number of issues. So, we thought it might be informative and interesting for you if we shared some of our thoughts. First thing we will say is that our policies and practices are constantly evolving, so the health warning here is that our current thinking can change at any time dependant on circumstances. For example, will the initial success that we are experiencing on the new tablet platforms be sustained? This and many other factors are constantly under review, especially where they relate to our very specific market sector.

We accept that inevitably we are regarded as part of the video games industry; however we believe that our business is quite different. Our audience is entirely focused on a particular category and style of game, so we totally accept that we are a hybrid, or niche business. We don’t mind the label, in fact in many ways we welcome this as we very much want to be linked or associated with our audience and the strategy wargaming world in all its varied categories, such as board gaming, miniatures, historical associations, re-enactors, fantasy, science fiction etc. etc. and significantly for us, keeping our games relevant to these diverse groups of gamers. What we have come to understand is that those who play these games generally look for a different, deeper, more realistic/accurate gaming experience; indeed as you are aware some of our games can take an entire evening to play a turn and some only 10 minutes. So we believe that both we and our audience are quite clearly different from the main stream video games industry and most certainly the mass market.

A factor that we think relevant to this debate is, do the rules that apply to sales of more mass market games, for example Call of Duty apply to us? Similarly do the rules that apply to hugely successful titles like Angry Birds apply? You might like us think we would have more chance of winning the lottery than building a business model on these particular examples. The sad truth is that middle sized and even larger Video Games Publishers that have not adapted to the new realities are now as rare as the Dodo. Think about it, other than major Publishers and the remaining few like us there are not many mid-sized Publishers left and certainly very few catering for our specific audience. A knock on effect of this is the closure of development studios. All of this is a direct consequence of the total melt down of video games sales at retail. It is now almost impossible to sell a stand-alone PC title at retail anywhere in the world, yes there are exceptions and in fact Germany is still a major retail territory for us, but unless you have a console sku, the PC market is now pretty well entirely digital. So drawing parallels or reference to past experience and what used to work in a retail environment may no longer be reliable or relevant. Fortunately, through Matrix we have been in the digital business for over 13 years and have accumulated a wealth of experience, data and records which certainly helps when building a business plan. In this brave new world many different business models are being tried, so it’s not surprising that deep discounting seems to be the flavour of the month to attract market share. Whilst this might be relevant to the mass market sector we do not think that this is a one size fits all solution and only time will tell if this is sustainable and who has got it right.

So where does that leave us? The size of our “niche” is substantial and is growing year on year, so niche does not mean declining or dying as some sceptics would have you believe. In fact volume sales for digital downloads increased 44% last year and we are still trying to take on board our astonishing success on the tablets. Every indication is showing that these numbers will be exceeded in the current year. Our customers are becoming ever more discerning, but are divided into various special interest groups. Other factors in this complex mix are that subsequently dropping prices penalizes early adopters and encourages a ‘wait for the sale’ attitude. Again, possibly fine for the mass market, but we will never punish our loyal fans in this way. So we have been experimenting with an early adopters discount on iPad sales, and then reverting to full price after an initial sale period. The exact reverse of the received wisdom. We also believe that when you sell someone an enormous game like Pride of Nations for next to nothing, they may have purchased for the wrong reason, are less engaged, or willing to invest the time it takes to understand and enjoy the game. The result is negative feedback or a lost customer as they would have been better directed to one of our lighter games to get started.

Now for the technical bit, we don’t accept that because an individual is not willing to pay a sustainable price for a game, it is necessarily a loss to revenue, we believe there is a flaw with that logic. In essence the number of units sold does not matter! What counts is the revenue achieved. For example selling 10,000 copies to our core audience will create a dedicated community, selling 100,000 copies to people who don’t get this niche, but bought “cause it’s cheap” will get us negative reviews and bad word of mouth. In this scenario real fans get shouted down as they are outnumbered. Our approach is different and aimed at growing our player base steadily. This approach is working and in fact sales of our back catalogue (games over 3 years old) are a significant part of this strategy, as often player’s start on the lighter games before digging in deeper.

So our argument is that losing a sale in volume terms is only relevant if it affects overall revenue. By dropping the price to what an individual is willing to pay, you lose the revenue from others who would have bought in any event as they value the product on its merits. The price drop is only sensible if there are enough purchasers tempted by the lower price to make up for the lost revenue. So the perception of an individual customer that this is a binary event is in our view flawed; some money at a low price vs. no money at the current price. The reality is that all this is far from binary and is a very complex big picture calculation, taking into account the buying patterns of millions of sales. Using our knowledge and experience, drawn substantially from our sales data we set the prices at sustainable and realistic levels taking all these factors into account and also factoring in our additional responsibility of making sure our developers get a reasonable return. We know with some certainty that there are not enough people just waiting till the price is dropped to make a purchase. Sure some will, but are they enough to make a difference, we believe not. So taking all of this into account you will see that our prices cover a huge range from $2.99 up to $79.99. In short we are a fairly unique business, with all the problems that entails. In essence our own records and data are our only reliable source of available information, but as we are entirely self funded it’s important to get it right and good advice is gratefully received wherever it comes from, so keep it coming we do listen and your comments often spark a good idea.

Another factor in this debate is the comparisons that are being drawn between us and the myriad of distribution companies like Impulse, GamersGate, GOG and Steam etc. It is certainly true that the revival in the PC market place has been phenomenal and in large part due to the success of Steam. However, we are not a Distribution Company. We are an honest to goodness Publisher with a very focused games line-up and target audience. Additionally, both Slitherine and Ageod are still heavily involved in Development of “our” sort of games and our knowledge and experience is freely shared with our Developer partners. PBMM++ and iPad development are examples of this.

Importantly though, we do have some firsthand knowledge of the Distribution business, but this is a very different business model from our own. Apart from Steam and making some sweeping generalisations most Distribution Companies will grab just about any title that comes their way, irrespective of who else is selling it. Developers provide the games as finished articles, ready for sale. For Distributors it’s then all about maximizing the size of the store by ramming in as many diverse genres and types of game as you can. It’s very much about grabbing market share and generally this is done by discounted sales promotions of one sort or another to attract customers into their stores, why else would you choose their particular point of sale to buy a game you can pick up anywhere. In this model it matters little which products sell and which don’t so long as you have enough of them to maintain sales levels. For Developers this can work for the right sort of product, generally where the game has mass market appeal, as here the more points of sale the better and the price is less important than the volume of sales in achieving sustainable revenue. In more specialist games however we believe that this model reverses.

In the past we did do a few distribution deals, but these are gradually being phased out as we focus all our efforts on our Developer partners. What this means in practise is that we work with our Developers from the earliest stage of development, often years in advance of release and seldom less than many months. We encourage new developers to sign up as early in the development cycle as possible, as our experience is that if we can provide advice at an early stage it can cut months from a project. Our role at this stage is therefore to work with Developers, giving feedback and the benefit of our experience to make their game as attractive to our audience as we can. Its heart breaking if the game has already gone too far to make these changes, often leaving a choice between delaying release for many months, or soldering on with a less than perfect solution. A Developers financial position rather than game issues can often dictate what happens next.

In addition we also provide or fund various assets or services as they are required such as, promotional activities, PR, marketing and advertising campaigns on a range of media, research, mission design and balancing, music and sound effects, manual writing, localisation, demo movies, artwork, web site forums and exposure, tech support, management and payment of third party suppliers, box art, movies or TV clips, age ratings, beta testing, Brand Licensing and porting services to other platforms such as the new Tablets, manufacture and sales. We also provide completely free of charge our “PBEM++©” and or Routing Server Services. Once a year we also invite our developers, who are close to release, to meet the Press at our annual Press Conference. The agenda allows for presentations, interviews and plenty of opportunity for our developers to chat informally to the press, each other and have face to face contact with our marketing and production staff. Usually we try to concentrate on members of the specialist press, who actually “get” these games, as there is little point asking for feedback or relevant review comment from the more mass market press. An amusing example of why comes from our press archives. In this particular review the reviewer simply did not understand the appeal of turn based strategy games, he felt the entire genre was dated and past its sell by date. The review headline was, “This Game is ****!” The remark was part of our learning curve. Suffice to say the game went on to become one of our top five all time best grossing games and the magazine is no longer in business.

Another and hugely important area of support is that we frequently support developers financially by way of interest free advances to support them till their royalties start coming in. This allows them to work on the game and draw a wage and or pay for artwork, music etc that they would otherwise not be able to afford. We currently have literally several hundred thousand dollars invested in this way. Obviously we are very careful about who and when this level of support is given, but without this many of their games would not see the light of day, but probably the biggest advantage that we offer is our community and Web Stores. It is without a shadow of doubt true that sales of “our” sorts of games are magnified significantly when sold through our stores. Our audience is pretty savvy, they know what they like and where to find it. From time to time we conduct research, like selling specific titles on other distribution channels, but to date this has been without exception disappointing. In addition we recently put Panzer Corps, one of our current best-selling titles, on Greenlight as we listened to comment in these and other forums and we were curious to see if it would improve sales. We are sceptical that it will improve sales, but we will be happy if we are proved wrong. We have received an enormous number of votes, but disappointingly more than half the votes cast have been to reject the game. Further evidence that we are not really part of the traditional video games industry.

So in the last analysis it’s important for us all to remember that if a Development team cannot make a decent return for literally thousands of man hours of work they will stop making these games. Then I guess the same people demanding deep discounts will complain that strategy games are dying. Someone in the forums mentioned it, but where on earth do you get hundreds of hours of entertainment for $30 and we figure it’s an important part of our job to make sure that the Developers gets a fair deal.

In summary, we are very much a niche business, part of the strategy wargames world selling products that are exclusive to us, with links to the Video Games industry. This unique combination of factors makes our business model indecipherable to many. What I will say is that the company continues to grow exponentially, with growth approaching 70% last year and on track for a similar pattern this year. As you have probably noticed we have been recruiting further specialist staff, not easy in any niche business, and there are now 25 of us running this business. We have offices in Vermont USA, Edmonton Canada, Milan Italy, Grenoble France and our head office in Epsom UK. So, just maybe despite all of the advice that we have been offered, it could be that we have stumbled along the right path.

Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don’t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested. So how about this for an idea, as Tim seems keen to help us. We host a promotion, sale of the week and run it in conjunction with RPS.

Thanks for reading and listening and keep the feedback coming, as I say we do listen and to confirm this we give you a list of responses to some of the points that have been made, don’t expect this every time but as I have said we do listen.

Regards and Best Wishes

Iain McNeil
Slitherine Group
Spikester
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Spikester »

Very reasonable answer.

Personally, my view is that I really enjoyed the old hex games when they were about, back in the day, like Operation Market Garden and Vulcan - the Tunisian Campaign are forged into my childhood.

I came across Slitherine by chance, because of some annoncement about Warhammer a couple of months ago and was impressed by the Panzer Corps demo.

I am willing to pay £28+ to play a game (that's a medium night out down the pub nowadays) and the support that' I've read on this forum, from a developer is impressive (I lurk rather than post, but still). Unfortunately these days, it seems that most people see value purely as a price point rather than a quality decision.

So yes it's an unbelievable price - for unbelievable quality. I hope as a developer their business model stands the test of time.
Longasc
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Longasc »

I think a response to this is wasted.

I know Kerbal Space Program and I decided not to buy it, to each his own. But I bought Panzer Corps which is not a cheap copy of a very old game but an excellent remake that even becomes better than the original which I loved.

This attitude is why we get shitty games definitely worth and worth no more than the 5 bucks they cost and "Free 2 Play" games that effectively cost more than a modest subscription fee. And even those get pirated.

Troll? Whatever, such "mateys" like the OP can go away and right on the blocked/ignore list.
Muddy
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Muddy »

I have to admit when looking into buying the mega pack, that with vat it came out at something like £33. I mean, for something that has already been released and sold, then stitched together, and sold again it did seem to be somewhat excessive.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by VPaulus »

Muddy wrote:I have to admit when looking into buying the mega pack, that with vat it came out at something like £33. I mean, for something that has already been released and sold, then stitched together, and sold again it did seem to be somewhat excessive.
I don't agree with your reasoning. Those who haven't bought any DLC have now the possibility of buying all DLC in one package. Those who had only purchased some of the DLC, can buy the Megapack at a discount price. Those who already own the 10 DLC don't need this Megapack. The Megapack is basically just a convenience for having the 10 DLC together in one installer.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Kerensky »

Not only this, but for any new player, should they choose to opt to buy a MegaPack, not only is this more convenient than handling 10 serials and 10 installers, but even with no discount, the price is actually lower than buying each of 10 DLC individually. $4.99 USD times 10 individual DLC > $39.99 USD one package. ;)

And we also consider that there are some players who do specifically wish for physical items. For example service members that are overseas who may not have steady and reliable internet connections, but need entertainment just like the rest of us. So the shipping cost comparison for each DLC is even greater with this in mind. $14.99 for each physical DLC boxed item, $49.99 for the boxed Megapack.
nats
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by nats »

Well I am sorry but even for a niche product its still far too much money. The fact is it would have probably gone on my 'to buy' list if it had been £25 or so for the original game plus the DLC pack (if thats what it is). But you know full well that nobody other than ardent fans of the game will pay almost £60 for a game with graphics like those which is based on an old game. Dont get me wrong I liked Panzer General back in the day and have no issues with a remake. But you seriously need to look carefully at your pricing model again.

Anyway I looked, I considered, I decided it was too much. Enough said. We live in tough times and I just dont have that kind of money for an impulse buy like this would have been.
"It's life Jim, but not as we know it"
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Kerensky »

Fair enough, but I have one final suggestion.

Try out the base game, it's only 20.99 GBP and one DLC (DLC 1939) for 3.99 GBP. That's already quite a bit of content, and you can get a taste for it before diving into the WHOLE package. There is a lot more to Panzer Corps than its predecessor, and they are worth exploring.

With this purchase, you not only have access to the base game campaigns plus the beginnings of the Grand Campaign, but you have access to the entire library of FREE user mods our wonderful community has constructed for us.
viewforum.php?f=147

There are lots of mods and entire campaigns available, these alone are probably worth more 100 hours of entertainment. ;)
Muddy
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Muddy »

When I first had a interest in Panzer corps, I was looking around for the cheapest place to buy. I soon found out that there was only 2 places that sold it, and that the price was quite high for a game as old as it was. I was going to forget it, but temptation took a hold and I shelled out for it. I am now glad that I did, the hours of enjoyment have been worth it. I love this type of game.

But, I did expect for the rehashed DLC to be cheaper.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Anfield »

In the two years of owning PC I cant count the hours ive played, and those hours of great enjoyment have only gone up with the DLC's and Afrika. Honestly Id pay 3x the price for these games! If the price is to high then dont buy, frankly if you whine over thinking the price is ten bucks more than you would like to pay, then that just sounds cheap to me. By that logic you could cry over the price of everything, just saying, as couldnt we argue we would all like things to be cheaper???
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Victor_K »

I think the original comments while valid, are a little naïve.

I decided to buy the base game, and over the past 4 months have picked up all the DLC. I am and remain very impressed. As a consumer I have received updates that have improved the game. Many which have been suggested on these very forums.

I am not sure how many hours of enjoyment I have received from this series (although my wife might).

We have all purchased games that have sat unused on our hard drives. The Panzer Corps series is not one of these.

Best money that I have spent on a war game in years.
Muddy
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Muddy »

I guess with PC being a niche game, they can't expect the turnover that other mainstream games can achieve, so keeping the price up is the only way for the developer to stay afloat.
So if it came to NOT having Panzer corps, or having it come with a beefy price tag, but available, then I would choose the latter.
matterhorn

Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by matterhorn »

I think the price is fair, very fair.
What I missed in PG was variety.
With the DLCs and AK you have tons of scenarios and new ideas like heroes, evac-zones, prototypes,... .

I'v purchased once a game that was a simulation in trading, yes, and in one day I was through the whole game.
And this was one of the "better" and praised games.

Nobody can tell me he plays 100+ scenarios in one day...

Then you have to consider the support the devs and the PC-team give in the forum: fast and good.
No one should take this for granted, it isn't.
From what I've seen so far Slitherine IS loyal to the players.

And loyalty has to be rewarded with a fair price.
Muddy
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Muddy »

Going by what I have learned.
It's terribly over priced for what it is while shopping for it. After you have bought and played it, then it's worth every penny. I can't say fairer then that. :)
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by mysticfm »

nats wrote:Anyway I looked, I considered, I decided it was too much. Enough said. We live in tough times and I just dont have that kind of money for an impulse buy like this would have been.
I think the vast majority of the target audience of a game like PzC would be something other than "impulse buyers". When someone gets a game like PzC, it seems like they have to be making a commitment to learning a relatively complex game (not complex as compared to Squad Leader, but as compared to the kind of point-and-click, no-rulebook games that would more commonly be characterized as "impulse buys").

I don't see a few dollars in price one way or the other as a significant issue with a game like this ... rather, I'm just thankful it exists at all (or will exist eventually, in my case, since I'm awaiting the Mac and iPad versions). So I guess that makes me more of the target audience. :D
Last edited by mysticfm on Fri May 03, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by nikivdd »

When i first read about the PG remake, i started to save money for PC. Instead of buying a couple of CD's or DVD's as i usually do every month, i kept the money aside to buy the brilliant remake of the original with countless hours of gameplay and even more hours of modding. Even if the price would have been 40-50 euro, i still would do the same today.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by Danimal1968 »

nats wrote:Well I am sorry but even for a niche product its still far too much money. The fact is it would have probably gone on my 'to buy' list if it had been £25 or so for the original game plus the DLC pack (if thats what it is). But you know full well that nobody other than ardent fans of the game will pay almost £60 for a game with graphics like those which is based on an old game. Dont get me wrong I liked Panzer General back in the day and have no issues with a remake. But you seriously need to look carefully at your pricing model again.

Anyway I looked, I considered, I decided it was too much. Enough said. We live in tough times and I just dont have that kind of money for an impulse buy like this would have been.
The great thing about free economies is that if something is too expensive, you have every right not to buy it. But those selling it have every right to say they're not giving in to your demand for a lower price. If they're wrong about their model they'll eventually have to change but they seem to be succeeding in a very challenging environment.

Personally I have found the game to be the best money I've spent on anything entertainment-related in the last year. The fact that you find the game too expensive hardly means that they need to rethink their pricing model.

Just to clarify, there's an original game, the Afrika Corps expansion (which is also a standalone), and then the 10 DLCs, which can be purchased together or separately.
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by soldier »

I was a mad Panzer General fan so i probably would have paid double the going price but that does not mean i would have been happy with a half baked rehash. Fortunately Panzer Corps is no such thing. Its a quality product that Slitherine and Lords have clearly put a good amount of work into, so for me its been worth every cent. Been happy as pig in **** getting stuck into the extended eastern front campaigns and fighting it out online
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Re: Unbelievable price !!!

Post by orchard »

I shelled out 70quid late last week for the base game and DLC's, after only playing the demo. I'm currently heading for Moscow in the vanilla to get to know the games mechanics, and there's hour's of well considered gaming before I get to try out the custom mod campaigns that members have kindly created. No regrets at all, but it was a gamble for me as I didn't really get a good idea of the detail of the game mechanics from the demo, and thankfully they're not superficial.
Cost-wise, it was a toss up for me between this, FOG, and an HPS game, and none of these are bargain options.
Anyway, thanks guys, it's fantastic :)
Nick
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