Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

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sn0wball
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Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by sn0wball » Mon May 20, 2013 8:51 am

I am playing GC 39-45 under 1.14. From time to time scripted units appear in the core, which is a good thing. What I didn´t really get is the story or reasoning behind the Hans Rudel "storyline". I only now discovered that I have two Ju-97 units in my core with a hero named Rudel, one with a disturbingly good +9/+9/+1 Rudel, the other with a weird -5-/-2/+2 Rudel.

I didn´t even know that negative heroes would be possible. What do I do with that negative Stuka ?

huertgenwald
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by huertgenwald » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 am

You can always disband a unit ...

Tarrak
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Tarrak » Mon May 20, 2013 1:44 pm

Don't you have to keep the weak version of Rudel to be able to receive the improved one? I haven't played the updated GC yet far enough just asking.

Regarding the story behind Rudel check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 6:27 pm

I don't really get all this. Can someone elaborate what 1.14 introduced here, how it works and what the reasoning is? And I know the biography or Rudel a bit but I don't see why that is a reason to introduce him twice?

Also doesn't the introduction of free core units mess up ones core a bit and also make the game a bit too easy?

verstaubtgesicht
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Mon May 20, 2013 8:30 pm

Can someone explain the multiple trait ("special") heroes in general? I have started the grand campaign from '39, played until Warszaw, then installed the 1.14 patch. I did not get any Rudel (?), but a 110 Tac bomber got it's first hero as +6 init and +1 attack, whereas a 109 fighter has +2 att + 2 init and +2 def for just one hero... These are regular, not SE units.

Resolute
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Resolute » Mon May 20, 2013 8:33 pm

I think they deliberately did not remove the reconaissance Stuka after his change of career path which makes sense since we would have people complaining where that plane did go without prior notice. I took it as free prestige and actually really like how he came back with those imba hero stats in Minsk. I turned that Stuka later into a FW and literally had a blast.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 8:41 pm

But doesnt it completely ruin the balancing to get these uber-units?

I probably won't get an answer before tomorrow morning anymore but could any dev explain these new heros? When do they show up? Are they free units with very high value heros? Are the normal heroes somehow changed as well?

Thanks.

Kerensky
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 8:57 pm

Rudel was tricky, because historically he was involved in the war from the very beginnings, but as noted only as a recon pilot. So the question was how to implement Rudel without having him be the ultra elite pilot he is from September 1939?

To do this, there were two iterations of Rudel. The first hero with mass negative values only has the benefit of improved spotting. As stated in the various in game prompts throughout the DLC, the player is encouraged to keep and use this special unit, even though all it can really do is perform recon. The trick is that anyone who chooses not to use this recon unit, or disbands it for prestige because they don't like all the negative stats, well then they miss out on second iteration Rudel.

To summarize If you don't play 1939, or don't use/disband the first iteration, you cannot gain access to second iteration Rudel. The only way to unlock this 'disturbingly good' unit is to carry the bad version through approximately 2.5 entire DLC, which is why the reward for this task is exceptional. After you've unlocked second iteration, you are free to keep the Recon Flight if you so choose of course or just disband it now that it has fulfilled its true purpose.

As for difficulty, people have been asking for improved 'pre-made' forces at the start of every DLC and rather than toss them a few ordinary heroes, this solution let us include some very historical figures into the DLC who at the same time were very interesting and unique and not just a meh '+1 initiative' hero. Ultimately, there are always higher difficulty levels for players to opt to tackle, if they do ever find the game too easy.
Resolute wrote:I think they deliberately did not remove the reconaissance Stuka after his change of career path which makes sense since we would have people complaining where that plane did go without prior notice. I took it as free prestige and actually really like how he came back with those imba hero stats in Minsk. I turned that Stuka later into a FW and literally had a blast.
This sums up our intentions pretty well. I especially like the description of 'imba' ;)

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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 9:02 pm

KeldorKatarn wrote:But doesnt it completely ruin the balancing to get these uber-units?

I probably won't get an answer before tomorrow morning anymore but could any dev explain these new heros? When do they show up? Are they free units with very high value heros? Are the normal heroes somehow changed as well?

Thanks.
They are sprinkled throughout all 10 DLC campaigns, this changelog details where they show up. *SPOILER ALERT*

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=42115

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 9:04 pm

My bigger issue with this is that with SE units, captured units and now free special units I feel like the game is taking the core bulding process in its own hands. I'll have a core full of units that I might not use because they don't fit the core scheme that I'm trying to opt for... dunno. I really like the idea, I just wonder whether SE+captured+historical might get too much at some point. But I say that without having tried it yet :)

How many of these special units are there roughly anyway without spoiling who they are and when they show up? And are they all as powerful as Rudel?

Also how do the heroes now work with those multi stat heroes?
Last edited by KeldorKatarn on Mon May 20, 2013 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kerensky
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 9:10 pm

There's about 3 or so added per DLC, but none are anywhere near the stats of Rudel. +9/+9 is the equivalent of minimum 6 heroes. Most other of these historical heroes are the equivalent of 2 standard heroes only.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 9:13 pm

What's up with the stuff "verstaubtgesicht" wrote? Do normal units get multi stat heroes also now? And have the possible values changed so +9 and stuff is possible now?

Kerensky
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 9:16 pm

Those are both examples of the new historical heroes.

verstaubtgesicht
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by verstaubtgesicht » Mon May 20, 2013 9:30 pm

So why did I miss the "good"and the "bad" Rudel - becuase I updated to 1.14 after Warszaw? I could use the +9/+9 guy, even if it;s later in the campaign... And who are the +6 init +1 att and +2 att +2 init +2 def guys?

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 9:30 pm

So the normal units still get just standard one value heroes with the same limits for those values as always? :) Also since I'm working on that Dossier Tool... what are the possible value combinations for special heros? Can they combine only two bonuses or even more, and what are their limits`? +9 for those? Just so I can integrate those into the tool :)

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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 9:35 pm

verstaubtgesicht wrote:So why did I miss the "good"and the "bad" Rudel - becuase I updated to 1.14 after Warszaw? I could use the +9/+9 guy, even if it;s later in the campaign... And who are the +6 init +1 att and +2 att +2 init +2 def guys?
Yes, because you updated after Warsaw, you did miss out on Rudel. Rudel iteration one shows up in the very first scenario of DLC 1939, Poznan. In fact, he shows up on turn two if I remember right. There are two other heroes that show up pre-Warsaw as well, Oleh Dir and Albert Kerscher. As for the other two, they are Helmut Lent and Heinrich Bar, both historical and not standard heroes.

Kerensky
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by Kerensky » Mon May 20, 2013 9:39 pm

KeldorKatarn wrote:So the normal units still get just standard one value heroes with the same limits for those values as always? :) Also since I'm working on that Dossier Tool... what are the possible value combinations for special heros? Can they combine only two bonuses or even more, and what are their limits`? +9 for those? Just so I can integrate those into the tool :)
Standard heroes remain unaffected. These historical heroes are pre-set, they have no variation in their abilities every time they are acquired but they also have no limits either. They can have multi-stat bonuses, or use values above the normal +1 move or +3 attack limits. They are truly unique heroes, and each one has his own unique portrait as well! Some even have negative values added on to their positives, such as fighter pilots who did not survive the war, these heroes have a negative bonus applied to their defense values.

KeldorKatarn
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by KeldorKatarn » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 pm

I see. Good to know. I need to think about how to integrate those into the tool then. :)

fliegenderstaub
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by fliegenderstaub » Tue May 21, 2013 8:52 am

My question related to unique heroes (I very much like them):

Will the units get a second and a third "normal" hero or not?

I ask because I just finished Minsk 41 - received Rudel :D -, but all of my other unique heroe units - despite lots of kills - haven't received another hero yet?

Thanks in advance! :)
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up on a poo-poo platter in the Tikki Hut of life! -Al Bundy -

krugec
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Re: Special Heroes: Hans Rudel

Post by krugec » Tue May 21, 2013 2:05 pm

As much as he whacks tanks, what's most useful is one shotting anti aircraft guns.
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