Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

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comradep
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by comradep » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:13 am

While modding I have thought about how tank-riders could be modeled in the game, indeed some sort of switchable unit might just work?
The elegant part of the solution of making the tank the transport was that it allowed you to use the unit both as infantry and as a weaker tank (with excellent close defence). If it would be switchable, you'd either use it as infantry that can move 3 hexes, or as a tank.
T-34's and KV-1 were far from rare, at the end of 1941 the Soviets had already built 3000 T-34's and 1500 KV tanks, much higher than the Panzer III/IV production up until that point. Of course, not all reached the frontlines and spare parts were scarce. So buy them all you want, it's still historically accurate.
Historically accurate in terms of production perhaps, but not in terms of use. 3000 tanks with Soviet loss rates and the size of the front in mind also isn't much. In the average Soviet PG mod, the player would've had 4 or 5 good T-34 or KV units by the time of a first winter offensive scenario. Historically, the Soviet Tank brigades at this time were authorized to contain a battalion (company in Western terms) of T-34's, so about 20 tanks. Some had two battalions, some none. Most were not nearly full strength. A Tank brigade was authorized to include about 10 KV 1's. The two remaining Tank divisions and the motorized Rifle units that still contained tanks that fought in the first winter offensive either didn't have any T-34's, or only a limited number of them. The T-26 was still their primary medium tank. There were not nearly enough T-34's to cope with the losses in medium tanks in the opening months. The first time the Germans needed to worry about larger concentrations of T-34's of a few hundred tanks in one sector of the front would be in mid-late 1942.

The Soviets had so few tanks in late 1941 that 4th Mechanized Corps, attacking at Brody in the opening days of Barbarossa, by itself had more non-recon tanks than all Tank units in Kalinin Front and Western Front combined when the Soviets started their winter offensive. Including all tank types, Kalinin Front and Western Front still only had about 1/4 to 1/5 the number of tanks the Soviets could deploy in occupied Poland/the western part of the Ukraine in June, which themselves made up only part of the Soviet total (something like 1/3 to 1/4 for all tank types). Many of these broke down and never saw action against the Germans, but the same goes for the T-34's later in the war. Of course, Panzer divisions were also a shadow of their former self in tank strength by winter.

In any campaign game, decreases in tank strengths are not likely to appear. The average German core is also a complete fantasy by 1944-1945, but for them the main balance issues pop up as soon as you can buy a core composed of Tigers in late 1942. For the Soviets, they tend to be able to buy KV-1's in the final Winter War scenario or get them as a prototype. The historical reason for using fewer KV-1's, a slower speed and the same gun as a T-34, is often less relevant in PG because a KV is virtually invulnerable to most German guns whilst a T-34 can still be hit, so higher ground defence at the cost of a slightly lower speed is usually acceptable. Depending on what kind of transport is available, a greater choice in artillery tractors/heavy trucks at the start of the campaign can also make Soviet artillery faster than their historical counterparts.

Anyway, I think the main challenge will be preventing the Soviets from forming an armoured juggernaugt too early like in most PG/PG2 Soviet mods and balancing the unit selection for that. Problematic situations would be historically weak German Panzer divisions facing numerous ~12 strength KV-1's, each with a good leader.

Radoye
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Radoye » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:51 pm

The solution - increase the pp price on tanks, gradually by an ever greater percent as the war goes on, and more for "better" units than for "historical" ones. It will make cores with hordes of Kingtigers (or IS-2's for all that matter) impossible, and would force the player to economize. Do i buy one of those super-uber-cool tanks or three of the garden variety?

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:12 am

tank riders idea seems interesting but then you have to do tank riders for all parties that would be objective. And how to maintain balance? regular infantry is not needed).
Last edited by Izgar on Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

comradep
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by comradep » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:12 am

There's a difference between infantry riding on tanks where the tank is a transport to the battlefield at most and infantry riding on tanks where the tank is actually moving the infantry into battle.

Just like the difference in doctrine between Allied and German motorized infantry employment (for the Allies, the truck was the taxi to the battlefield, for the Germans it was supposed to move them up close to the fighting), the Soviets were as far as I know the only side in the conflict that consistently transported infantry into battle on tanks at certain stages in the war, because they had few half-tracks until Lend-Lease got into gear and not enough trucks. In terms of infantry to tank ratio, mechanized corps (the mid-late war unit, not the early war corps HQ) were a more balanced force than Tank corps.

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:37 am

comradep wrote:There's a difference between infantry riding on tanks where the tank is a transport to the battlefield at most and infantry riding on tanks where the tank is actually moving the infantry into battle.

Just like the difference in doctrine between Allied and German motorized infantry employment (for the Allies, the truck was the taxi to the battlefield, for the Germans it was supposed to move them up close to the fighting), the Soviets were as far as I know the only side in the conflict that consistently transported infantry into battle on tanks at certain stages in the war, because they had few half-tracks until Lend-Lease got into gear and not enough trucks. In terms of infantry to tank ratio, mechanized corps (the mid-late war unit, not the early war corps HQ) were a more balanced force than Tank corps.

This is not entirely accurate. Soviet and German doctrine tank breakthrough meant the use of tank riders as direct support tanks in battle, and only secondarily as a means of transportation ( Soviet tank riders were called (Tankovyi Desant,Танковый десант) German tank riders had the name as Panzergrenadiere ).

comradep
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by comradep » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:21 pm

I'm not aware of the Germans using as many Tank riders as the Soviets, as they had enough trucks and half-tracks to motorize the infantry battalions in the Panzer divisions. Panzergrenadier is also a title that only became official in 1942-1943, before that the motorized infantry regiments in a Panzer division were called Schuetzen regiments and the motorized infantry divisions that were later renamed to Panzergrenadier divisions still retained the name of the infantry division they originally were, with motorised added to the name.

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:24 pm

comradep wrote:I'm not aware of the Germans using as many Tank riders as the Soviets, as they had enough trucks and half-tracks to motorize the infantry battalions in the Panzer divisions. Panzergrenadier is also a title that only became official in 1942-1943, before that the motorized infantry regiments in a Panzer division were called Schuetzen regiments and the motorized infantry divisions that were later renamed to Panzergrenadier divisions still retained the name of the infantry division they originally were, with motorised added to the name.

well, let's turn to the facts ) as seen in these photos German tank riders have had widespread application in the with 1941- 45 years. There are still enough of photos to prove this.
Last edited by Izgar on Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Razz1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:18 pm

I do not think it is feasible as all it does is make transportation less valuable if you can use a tank.

Also, it is more beneficial to employ horses as that's what the army's used throughout the whole war.

bebro
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by bebro » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:08 am

I think it may be difficult to represent tank riders in PzC. Sure you can make switch units, but as far as I understand the use of tank riders, they weren't explicit "units" in the PzC sense, rather an ad hoc combi of inf and tank. How would this work in PzC?

Buying it as tank or inf primary, then switch to the opposite unit? That would mean if you switch to inf, the "tank part" would not be there at all (and vice versa). Unless you make some sort of "jack of all trades" unit having both the abilities of inf and tanks at the same time. That could render the explicit tank or inf units we have now rather useless.

Radoye
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Radoye » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:08 am

bebro wrote:I think it may be difficult to represent tank riders in PzC. Sure you can make switch units, but as far as I understand the use of tank riders, they weren't explicit "units" in the PzC sense, rather an ad hoc combi of inf and tank. How would this work in PzC?

Buying it as tank or inf primary, then switch to the opposite unit? That would mean if you switch to inf, the "tank part" would not be there at all (and vice versa). Unless you make some sort of "jack of all trades" unit having both the abilities of inf and tanks at the same time. That could render the explicit tank or inf units we have now rather useless.
If you model each unit with an inherent weakness, it won't.

In that case, you'd have:

- an infantry unit that is a soft target, slow (need a transport), has modest attack values, weak defense, but is good at close combat
- a tank that is a hard target, fast, has good attack and good defense but is poor at close combat
- a tank/rider combo which is a ? target, has good attack, ? defense and is good a close combat

Now the trick is to set up the ? values in such a way to make the player think which of the three to choose. Each class has to be the right tool for a particular job, none should be an obvious choice and a solution to every problem.

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:45 am

Slightly off topic new units. Why not make one scenario (eg bonus) in the Soviet Corp., showing the war in the Arctic Circle in the Murmansk region (such as the protection of convoys Lend Lease or Petsamo 44). This would make the game more diverse and would show the entire width of the front, from Africa to the Arctic .

comradep
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by comradep » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:55 am

well, let's turn to the facts ) as seen in these photos German tank riders have had widespread application in the with 1941- 45 years. There are still enough of photos to prove this.
Like I wrote before, there's a difference between men riding to the battlefield on tanks and men actually moving into the battle on a tank. There are plenty of pictures with Germany infantry on tanks, I agree, but that doesn't mean it was accepted doctrine to actually ride into battle that way. Compare that to the Soviet doctrine where it was considered to be more acceptable, as the Soviets didn't have enough vehicles for their needs (and Lend-Lease halftracks only coming in later in the war) when it comes to deploying units in battle.

It's a crucial difference, infantry catching a ride on tanks and infantry actually supposed to dismount from the tank after it drove them into the fray and start fighting.

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:21 am

I doubt the expediency to use the tank as a vehicle, many players will perceive the tank riders as a variety of infantry (танковый десант or Panzergrenadiers) and not as an attempt to create a vehicle. Or get too simplistic or too complicated.

Dragoon.
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Dragoon. » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:28 pm

More Armored (Recon) Cars would make sense if you're so cool to start the campaign with Battles of Khalkhin Gol I think.

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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by kiluj » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:40 pm

What about fighter prototype I-185?

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:19 am

Dragoon wrote:More Armored (Recon) Cars would make sense if you're so cool to start the campaign with Battles of Khalkhin Gol I think.
Yes Khalkhin Gol is a very rare scenario and could be a great start to the Soviet campaign. No unlikely developers for one scenario will make the Japanese troops.

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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by LandMarine47 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:22 am

A good tutorial lesson :)

caca
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by caca » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:22 am

We are here with friends consulted and decided collectively to offer units for Soviet Corps.

infantry
1. Company antitank guns (рота противотанковых ружей)
2. partisans
3. Motorcyclists
4. Marines
5. Cossacks can be switched recon-infantry.

tanks
6. OT-133 or OT-130
7. OT-34
8. T-28 or T-35
9. Grand
10. Churchill
11. Captured German tanks

recon
12. T-38

antitank
13. ZIS-30

artillery
14. SU-5-2
15. B-4 203 mm
16. BM-24-8

flak
17. 25 mm 72-K
18. 25 mm on the GAZ-AA
19. quad maxims on GAZ-AAA

Fighters.
20. Bell P-39 Aerocobra
21. Curtiss P-40

Tactical bombers.
22. TU-2
23. SB
24. A-20 Boston

strategic bomber
25. TB-3
26. Ep 2
27. DB-3

Land transport.
28. GAZ-AAA
29. Voroshilovets

glider
30. G-11

:)

Izgar
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Izgar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:43 pm

add to the list )

Tank

Flammpanzer Pz.lll (Fl)
M4 Sherman

recon

Willys MB or Dodge WC-51 switches razvedchik (eg SE unit).
BA-11

antitank

SU-85 or SU-100

artillery

BT-7A (switcher)
kV-2 (switcher)

Land transport.

Studebaker US6
Half-Track M3
Attachments
a2f31fc2b0f5782a58238b102ed3e45d.jpg
soviet razvedchik
a2f31fc2b0f5782a58238b102ed3e45d.jpg (50.31 KiB) Viewed 7147 times
Last edited by Izgar on Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kerensky
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Re: Soviet Corps - new units suggestions

Post by Kerensky » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:38 am

Winter camo schemes for some Russian units, like SE units. Their green tanks just REALLY stick out on snow maps, heh.

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