How to handle the KV-5

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JimmyC
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How to handle the KV-5

Post by JimmyC » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:26 am

KV-5: Ammo 4, Initiative 7, Soft attack 10, Hard attack 14, Ground defence 24, Air defence 18

I just finished Buzinovka Depot in which you are introduced to the Russian KV-5 (2 of them actually). Whilst I managed to win this scenario, I really struggled with how to deal with these SPATG’s. The scenario itself is fairly easy and the other enemy you face are pretty easy too. This allowed me to gang up on the KV-5’s and engage them until they ran out of ammo. But if I face these guys in the future and they have reasonable backup, I have no idea how I am going to defeat them? Even my 13 overstrength 17cm artillery and 13 overstrength STUG IIIB only provide 1 suppression on these guys. And my best tank killer (a 14 overstrength STUG IIIF/8) has a predicted 2, -2 combat result against them. You’d think with them being AT that infantry would be the way to deal with them – but my 11 strength +2 Attack Grenadier has 1, -2 combat result prediction (after I had suppressed 3 strength of the KV-5!). And finally, as they have only 4 ammo, I thought to use a Strategic bomber to take away its ammo. But my 10 strength Strat bomber (admittedly a green one), didn’t even take away 1 ammo. It just suppressed 1 strength of the KV-5!

In the end for that scenario I just surrounded the KV-5 and shot it (usually taking more damage than I caused) until it ran out of ammo. Then I just kept hitting it again and again until it was killed. But this would simply be an impractical option on any of the harder maps – especially if the KV-5 has decent support.

So how should you handle these guys? Any tips? I’m about to do the Stalingrad Assault scenario and Tigers/Panthers are still a long way away. At the moment my best tanks are a captured KV1-C, Panzer IIIN and Panzer IVG.

Tarrak
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by Tarrak » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:09 am

Actually the first KV-5 you can face is in the Streets of Moscow scenario. Luckily you can catch it easily there in close terrain where infantry is surprisingly effective against it. If you can't catch it in close terrain use the Rudel superhero on it. Rudels +9 attack makes him deadly even against high armored tanks. If you play without the superheros then you can of course use a normal tactical bomber but it may take a few attacks to kill the KV-5. Alternatively use an experienced level bomber to drain his ammunition. The effectivity of a strategic bomber rises a lot with it's experience. If you have a experienced one, which is always good to have in your core for naval attacks at some maps, it can take the KV-5 down to 1 or max. 2 ammo. Then just surround the KV-5 and use some units with high defense like the captured KV-1 tanks or some cheap infantry to drain the rest of his ammunition and then finish him off.

Resolute
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by Resolute » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:24 pm

And besides what Tarrak mentioned there are only a few scenarios where you come across them. From the top of my head I can only think of three.

Shrike
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by Shrike » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:20 pm

This approach actually works for all except airborne units you want to take out and it shows why suppression with artillery and level bombers is crucial in this game:

1) suppress the target
2) block from all but one side
3) fully suppressed? if not then see 1), if yes then see 4)
4) attack with strong enough unit of choice (doesn't need to do damage, just make target retreat)
5) problem solved

If you can, you better start hitting it with level bombers as soon as possible, so that every time its entrenchment level goes down AND its ammunition is depleted by one.

ThorHa
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by ThorHa » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:28 pm

Don´t worry about these too much. Either force a retreat in close terrain and annihilate with infantry or use Rudel StuKa.

At 14 hard they don´t do that much damage to experienced German armour, they are slow as hell and have little ammo. I found the Churchills much more annoying in the mentioned scenario, the KVs are a paper tiger whereever they show up.

The US SPAA are a real threat in this scenario, the solution is to not move own air in turn 1 resp. only in safe places OR to give them an experienced level bomber to lure them into positions where you can destroy them easily.

Regards,
Thorsten

captainjack
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by captainjack » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:22 pm

Where possible, I hit the KV5 with a strategic bomber to deplete ammo, set my most heavily armoured unit on it to remove the last shot. If possible I try to surround and strat bomb it then try to force a surrender (I tend to have a high proportion of artillery so this is a little easier for me than for those with more balanced forces). Otherwise, close terrain and a grenadier unit with attack hero will usually do the trick. Once out of ammo, set your recon or green units on it - sure it takes time but experience gain from a 700 prestige unit is quite good.

There's a KV5 in Persia as well. Fortunately that arrives by boat, so as long as you remembered to keep your strategic bomber out of the way of the allied SPAAG and fighters it can be disposed of quite easily. The alternative approach is to line up all your damaged units and SPAA at the landing sites to prevent disembarkation and attack them with whatever can hit them. This is slower but does provide a handy way to get safe experience for any green units.

JimmyC
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by JimmyC » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:12 am

Thanks for the tips all – overstrengthed strategic bombers sound like the way to go for dealing with it (as well as trying to draw it on close terrain). I play with heroes, but not Rudel, as I feel he is gamebreakingly OP. Don’t get me wrong here, I really think the developers did a great job and I like the RPG element by introducing heroes. But I really can’t understand how they justify making a +9A Junker Hero??

I’m glad to hear that you don’t see the KV5’s in many of the scenarios – I was actually worried that they were going to become a regular enemy that I would see often. I am now 2/3 way through Storming Stalingrad and am happy to say I have not seen any more!

Agree also about the US SPAA being a bigger threat on the depot scenario – the map is swarming with them!

MartyWard
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by MartyWard » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:20 pm

JimmyC wrote: But I really can’t understand how they justify making a +9A Junker Hero??
Because he flew ~2,500 combat missions, was credited with ~2,000 destroyed targets in the war including ~500 tanks and 4 ships and was shot down 32 times!

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:23 pm

MartyWard wrote:
JimmyC wrote: But I really can’t understand how they justify making a +9A Junker Hero??
Because he flew ~2,500 combat missions, was credited with ~2,000 destroyed targets in the war including ~500 tanks and 4 ships and was shot down 32 times!
And at least one of those ships was a Battleship!

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tj4t11z3ttl142w/SCACW.zip/file

ThorHa
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by ThorHa » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:30 pm

MartyWard wrote:
JimmyC wrote: But I really can’t understand how they justify making a +9A Junker Hero??
Because he flew ~2,500 combat missions, was credited with ~2,000 destroyed targets in the war including ~500 tanks and 4 ships and was shot down 32 times!
Yep, he was the one survivor among the 1.000 trying the same. The others are decorated by gravestones.

Regards,
Thorsten

MartyWard
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by MartyWard » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:41 pm

ThorHa wrote:
MartyWard wrote:
JimmyC wrote: But I really can’t understand how they justify making a +9A Junker Hero??
Because he flew ~2,500 combat missions, was credited with ~2,000 destroyed targets in the war including ~500 tanks and 4 ships and was shot down 32 times!
Yep, he was the one survivor among the 1.000 trying the same. The others are decorated by gravestones.

Regards,
Thorsten
The SOB had his leg shot off and still flew. He's the kind of guy you want on your side in a fight that is for sure! Too bad he fought for the wrong one in his lifetime.

JimmyC
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by JimmyC » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:27 am

Don't get me wrong - i'm not saying that he wasn't a great pilot (and yes, i know of his history - although just via wikipedia). I just feel that reflecting it by giving him +9 attack is game breaking OP. Why not give him a mix of better stats such as increases in initiative and defense that would reflect his ability to survive the duration of the war - rather than just boosting his attack to ridiculous levels.

But its purely optional to use him and there is always the option of modding him to something different. Its the beauty of this game that the player can decide to mod something if they don't like it. :)

Tarrak
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by Tarrak » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:39 am

He actually gets +9 attack, +9 defense and +1 movement. :P And the unit still can get two normal heroes in the course of the campaign. Yes this is on the border of being game breaking OP, especially if you get some good second and third hero on his unit. I say on the border of being game breaking OP because while this unit itself is extremely powerful just one doesn't really make that huge difference in the long run.

MartyWard
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by MartyWard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:48 pm

Tarrak wrote:He actually gets +9 attack, +9 defense and +1 movement. :P And the unit still can get two normal heroes in the course of the campaign. Yes this is on the border of being game breaking OP, especially if you get some good second and third hero on his unit. I say on the border of being game breaking OP because while this unit itself is extremely powerful just one doesn't really make that huge difference in the long run.
I got a +3A and a +1D hero in addition to Rudel. It was a pretty tough 190G!

JimmyC
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by JimmyC » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:13 am

Tarrak wrote:He actually gets +9 attack, +9 defense and +1 movement. :P And the unit still can get two normal heroes in the course of the campaign. Yes this is on the border of being game breaking OP, especially if you get some good second and third hero on his unit. I say on the border of being game breaking OP because while this unit itself is extremely powerful just one doesn't really make that huge difference in the long run.
:shock: Haha - i just noticed the +9 attack and decided that was stupidly OP and would not use him! Didn't notice the other boosts also.

Part of the beauty of single player though is that you can choose to just not use this unit (or just mod him).

hmshood
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by hmshood » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:29 pm

Am still fairly new to PC..don't get to this nearly as often as I would like. ya'all yappin' 'bout this new KV-5 is well....frankly.... scaring the crap outta me.....'twas enuff to deal with the updated T34's, Guards Units, other KV's and miscellaneous Russian riffraff...but now this?...so...just tell me now...is there a KV-6 on my horizon
?.......

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:23 pm

hmshood wrote:Am still fairly new to PC..don't get to this nearly as often as I would like. ya'all yappin' 'bout this new KV-5 is well....frankly.... scaring the crap outta me.....'twas enuff to deal with the updated T34's, Guards Units, other KV's and miscellaneous Russian riffraff...but now this?...so...just tell me now...is there a KV-6 on my horizon
?.......
The only thing meaner than the KV5 is the IS-1 and IS-2.

Dive bombers will be your best friend here! (and Tigers!)

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tj4t11z3ttl142w/SCACW.zip/file

flakfernrohr
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by flakfernrohr » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:57 pm

May as well ad in the new IS3, IS4 and IS7 Russian tanks to the ranks of the bad boys in the mix.
Old Timer Panzer General fan. Maybe a Volksturm soldier now. Did they let Volksturm drive Panzers?

TSPC37730
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by TSPC37730 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:02 pm

And if the JS tanks weren't enough themselves, they always seem to be chronically overstrength too.

shawkhan2
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Re: How to handle the KV-5

Post by shawkhan2 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:42 pm

The way to defeat the big tanks is to strategically bomb them to deprive them of ammunition(their main weakness), then maintain o/h air and as many adjacent units as you can in order to keep them from re-supplying. Basically the same thing as dealing with forts.

If they cannot shoot, they cannot hurt you.

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