Soft cap questions.

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edahl1980
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Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:57 pm

Let me see if i get this right.
The average value on what i field must not go over 400 prestige?
Is that the same for DLC'39 and DLC'45?

This would explain why i ran out of prestige and lost the war in 1943.....

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by captainjack » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:07 am

SE units are excluded, but everything else you deploy is counted.
I've had it affecting me in 1941 - I rarely use more than 12 strength and tend to defer upgrades, so I was quite surprised that it would act so soon.
The hidden action and the limits have been subject to some debate.
If you prefer different limits or would rather not use the cap, you can edit the Gamerules file (but only after making a backup). It's not that difficult but could break things if done wrong. ThvN has posted some instructions on how to do this but I haven't got a link handy.

edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:16 am

Alright. But the cap is 400 from 39 to 45?
And what is the penalty for going over? Any place i can read about this?

Tarrak
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:00 am

You can read a detailed explanation about the prestige soft cap here.

A general discussion about it and ThvN's explanation how to turn it off can be found here. For the explanation scroll a bit down. It's in the second post by ThvN in this thread.

Additionally there seems to be a bug with the soft cap which seems to make it hit harder then actually intended. For details see here.

If you still have some (or maybe even more :P) questions open after reading it feel free to ask. :)

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by braccada » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:17 pm

The soft cap reduces prestige income after you reach average unit value of 400, after that you will gradually earn less prestige. The reduction is capped at 80% when your average units value reach 800. The relevant value is the average prestige value of your deployed units including transports and overstrength and not including special units like SE-Units.

Keep in mind that you will reach the 400 threshold earlier than you might think by using overstrength. Even a Pioneer with transport at strength 12 is worth more than 400. So if you use 12 strength units across the board you will be hit by the prestige cap very early.

Thats the short version. For more details go to the links provided above.
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035

edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:43 am

Here is another question i cant seem to find an answer to.

If i can deploy 10 units, does that give me 4000 soft cap worth of spending? Even if i only deploy 9 units.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:52 am

TigerIII wrote:Here is another question i cant seem to find an answer to.

If i can deploy 10 units, does that give me 4000 soft cap worth of spending? Even if i only deploy 9 units.
No it does not. The prestige cap is calculated with the units currently deployed (excluding SE units). It does not matter how many units you could theoretically deploy, it just calculates the average value of your deployed force and compare this then with the set thresholds.

edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:59 am

Tarrak wrote:
TigerIII wrote:Here is another question i cant seem to find an answer to.

If i can deploy 10 units, does that give me 4000 soft cap worth of spending? Even if i only deploy 9 units.
No it does not. The prestige cap is calculated with the units currently deployed (excluding SE units). It does not matter how many units you could theoretically deploy, it just calculates the average value of your deployed force and compare this then with the set thresholds.
Then who had the genius idea of setting the cap at 400 in 1943 and beyond?
There is no way you can have an average value of 400 and still field an army capable of winning the campaigns of 43. 44 and 45 at difficulty Field Marshall......

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:14 am

TigerIII wrote:
Tarrak wrote:
TigerIII wrote:Here is another question i cant seem to find an answer to.

If i can deploy 10 units, does that give me 4000 soft cap worth of spending? Even if i only deploy 9 units.
No it does not. The prestige cap is calculated with the units currently deployed (excluding SE units). It does not matter how many units you could theoretically deploy, it just calculates the average value of your deployed force and compare this then with the set thresholds.
Then who had the genius idea of setting the cap at 400 in 1943 and beyond?
There is no way you can have an average value of 400 and still field an army capable of winning the campaigns of 43. 44 and 45 at difficulty Field Marshall......
I know. Isn't 600 more reasonable?

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edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:43 am

What is reasonable and not i do not know. I thought the Rommel difficulty was added for the player to have less prestige.

A 400 cap in 1943-45 is crazy.
Even a BF-109E is over the cap by 10, and that is 1939 tech. That plane wont live long from 43-45.
A PzIV-J cost 510. That is 110 over the cap. And this tank will not win you many battles in 1944. Its a support tank and flank cover for bigger tanks at most.
I suppose the skirted JagdPzIV is a scoop at 377, but once you give it an extra star it goes over the cap.
As for artillery i suppose anything other than Hummel doesnt make much sense. The 210mm cost to much and goes over the cap with transport. nebelwerfers goes over the cap, Brumbar isnt that good, ive used it for flavour in previous games.
The AA guns that may be worth getting is so close to the cap that i doubt they are worth getting after all. Perhaps they should have a "switch" mode so you can use them against land units also? Several AA guns was used against land units as well, not just the famous 88. In panzer general i had several mobile AA units as i could use them against infantry as well.
Fighters and the soft cap just doesnt make sense at all. BF-109E cost 410 and the cap is 400. Nuff said.
As for TAC's i guess its all about the cannonbirds(Ju-87G). Previously ive used many 110's because they can assist in shooting down planes also but now they go over the cap as soon as the F version is available, and that is before giving it extra strenght.
I see same problem with strat bombers. Ju-88 in 44 for real? With no overstrenght?

Again, i thought Rommel difficulty was to give players extreme difficulty with prestige.
The soft cap, unless you saved up ridiculous amounts early on... Is going to strike back hard in 1943, and reduce you to a force barely capable of defending afterwards.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:55 am

TigerIII wrote:The soft cap, unless you saved up ridiculous amounts early on... Is going to strike back hard in 1943, and reduce you to a force barely capable of defending afterwards.
I saved up 110k and I'm still being mauled by it, so 400 is insane.

600 is possibly alright as the only problems there are OP stuff like Tigers and 262s

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edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:13 am

All those people that complained? about the game being to easy. Did they try grand campaign on Rommel difficulty?

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:08 pm

Yes 400 may be a bit low but you are making a mistake by looking at only the most expensive units.

Infantry for example costs a lot less then 400 prestige, even if you use half tracks for them. With just trucks or even without transports, as some people advocate, they are really lowering your average prestige costs. Towed artillery is mostly cheaper unless you insist on using the biggest and guns. Ju 87 is cheaper, even if not by much, and can fulfill his role good until the end of the war. Yes it needs protection all the time but this at least keeps your fighters busy after you got air superiority. :P The top end Panzer IV models are just slightly above 400 prestige. Most anti tank guns, even the self propelled, are cheaper.

You can stay not that far above 400 average prestige even in the late war but it does not allow you to field exclusively a Tiger and Panther core and still receive the full prestige. You can do that but you will have to live with reduced prestige gain. It's not like you are getting instantly a lot less as soon you gets over 400 prestige limit. The formula is as follows: (MaxPrestige-Prestige)/(MaxPrestige-NormalPrestige) so for example when you core average costs are 500 you will get (800-500)/(800-400) = 300/400 = 3/4 of the normal prestige rate which, except on Rommel, should still be enough to sustain your troops. Even at 600 average costs you will still receive 50% of the normal prestige which turns a normal game into a Rommel. Hard but doable. Of course on Rommel with prestige soft cap the game gets REALLY hard but that's fine imho as it should be on a bonus difficulty level.

I personally only play the game at general level as it is then difficult enough for me but there are certain people around who really beat the game on Rommel swimming in prestige. Everyone to each own. :)

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:14 pm

And why should we be any worse equipped than the Grossdeutchland was in 1943?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer-Gre ... eutschland
In 43 that looks about right for what we should be able to field without being given a cap. After all, we are the spearhead leading the Kursk offensive, either from north or south.
Even in 45 we cannot field what an authentic German division fielded in 1943 and that i do think need a fix.

And for those who want the game to be harder there is always the Rommel, Manstein and Guderian difficulties.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:27 pm

Tarrak wrote:Yes 400 may be a bit low but you are making a mistake by looking at only the most expensive units.

Infantry for example costs a lot less then 400 prestige, even if you use half tracks for them. With just trucks or even without transports, as some people advocate, they are really lowering your average prestige costs. Towed artillery is mostly cheaper unless you insist on using the biggest and guns. Ju 87 is cheaper, even if not by much, and can fulfill his role good until the end of the war. Yes it needs protection all the time but this at least keeps your fighters busy after you got air superiority. :P The top end Panzer IV models are just slightly above 400 prestige. Most anti tank guns, even the self propelled, are cheaper.

You can stay not that far above 400 average prestige even in the late war but it does not allow you to field exclusively a Tiger and Panther core and still receive the full prestige. You can do that but you will have to live with reduced prestige gain. It's not like you are getting instantly a lot less as soon you gets over 400 prestige limit. The formula is as follows: (MaxPrestige-Prestige)/(MaxPrestige-NormalPrestige) so for example when you core average costs are 500 you will get (800-500)/(800-400) = 300/400 = 3/4 of the normal prestige rate which, except on Rommel, should still be enough to sustain your troops. Even at 600 average costs you will still receive 50% of the normal prestige which turns a normal game into a Rommel. Hard but doable. Of course on Rommel with prestige soft cap the game gets REALLY hard but that's fine imho as it should be on a bonus difficulty level.

I personally only play the game at general level as it is then difficult enough for me but there are certain people around who really beat the game on Rommel swimming in prestige. Everyone to each own. :)
Like you said. Even the top end PzIV is just slightly over the cap. When it probably should be just under the cap to compensate for expensive Tigers and Panthers.
Towed artillery may need a longer range then because when i look at all artillery only the Hummel seems like a bargain beyond 1943. Under the cap, mobile and it does decent damage.
As you said. Ju87 need fighter protection. But even the weakest fighter. BF-109E is over the cap.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:39 pm

You need to look at the average values over the whole army. Every infantry, which costs 187 prestige for the 43 Infantry, allows you to field another unit with a value of 610 prestige without suffering any cap which is almost enough for a Panther tank. Every recon units like the SdKfz 232 8Rad, which is perfectly fine even in 45 for scouting, allows you to even field a unit with a value of 755 which is enough for a Tiger tank.

Additionally you can go easily over the 400 prestige limit if you want you just do not get full prestige rewards anymore. The cap does not prevent you from using expensive cores it just reduces the rewards you get. Considering the fact that the better your core is, the less damage you take and you have to spend less prestige on repairs the whole idea is very sound. If the limit set to 400 is really the optimum, this is questionable but you can always turn the whole soft cap off or set own limits if you follow ThvN's instructions. That is if you aren't playing on a IPad but then i would blame Apple for not allowing you to edit files in your own game. :P

edahl1980
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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:08 pm

Tarrak wrote:You need to look at the average values over the whole army. Every infantry, which costs 187 prestige for the 43 Infantry, allows you to field another unit with a value of 610 prestige without suffering any cap which is almost enough for a Panther tank. Every recon units like the SdKfz 232 8Rad, which is perfectly fine even in 45 for scouting, allows you to even field a unit with a value of 755 which is enough for a Tiger tank.

Additionally you can go easily over the 400 prestige limit if you want you just do not get full prestige rewards anymore. The cap does not prevent you from using expensive cores it just reduces the rewards you get. Considering the fact that the better your core is, the less damage you take and you have to spend less prestige on repairs the whole idea is very sound. If the limit set to 400 is really the optimum, this is questionable but you can always turn the whole soft cap off or set own limits if you follow ThvN's instructions. That is if you aren't playing on a IPad but then i would blame Apple for not allowing you to edit files in your own game. :P
Well. I think the cap at 400 exclude many units from the game.
Such as the PzIV. No one is going to throw in 2 PzIV when you get a king tiger for less. In 44 id rather use 2 King tigers over 4 PzIV
Recon is fine the way it is. Same goes for infantry.
As for artillery. Hummel is the only one that looks worth getting. The only reason i use the towed artillery is because that is where the really big guns are. But the really big guns with transport goes over the soft cap. And more often than not they fall behind when you are attacking.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by MartyWard » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:22 pm

TigerIII wrote:All those people that complained? about the game being to easy. Did they try grand campaign on Rommel difficulty?
You have always had the ability to play the game any way you want. If you wanted to have a force made of the not so best equipment, you could do just that. If you wanted one made up of the latest and greatest, you could do that. I never use the cap as it only allows you to play one way unless you want to use cheats.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:27 pm

I think you misunderstand the way the soft cap is calculated. Lets take a look at your example with 4 x PzIVs vs. 2 Tiger IIs. For simplicity lets assume they are the only units you are going to deploy and all of them are normal, non SE, units. The average unit value for your PzIV (assuming here the best variant J) is 4 x 516 / 4 = 516. This core yields you (800-516)/(800-400) = 0,71 also 71% of the prestige rewards. Now the average value for your Tiger II core is 2 x 990 / 2 = 990 prestige. This yields (800-900)/(800-400) = -0,25 ... well this means you get the minimal amount of prestige possible which on default is set to 20%. This is a huge difference.

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Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by MartyWard » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:52 pm

Tarrak wrote:I think you misunderstand the way the soft cap is calculated. Lets take a look at your example with 4 x PzIVs vs. 2 Tiger IIs. For simplicity lets assume they are the only units you are going to deploy and all of them are normal, non SE, units. The average unit value for your PzIV (assuming here the best variant J) is 4 x 516 / 4 = 516. This core yields you (800-516)/(800-400) = 0,71 also 71% of the prestige rewards. Now the average value for your Tiger II core is 2 x 990 / 2 = 990 prestige. This yields (800-900)/(800-400) = -0,25 ... well this means you get the minimal amount of prestige possible which on default is set to 20%. This is a huge difference.
And it will cost you 2000 prestige to replace the 4 PZIVJ units that die when they go up against the hordes of JSIII's so you end up with less prestige then if you went all KT :)

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