Soft cap questions.

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

alkafluence
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:09 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by alkafluence » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:51 pm

Tarrak wrote:I think you misunderstand the way the soft cap is calculated. Lets take a look at your example with 4 x PzIVs vs. 2 Tiger IIs. For simplicity lets assume they are the only units you are going to deploy and all of them are normal, non SE, units. The average unit value for your PzIV (assuming here the best variant J) is 4 x 516 / 4 = 516. This core yields you (800-516)/(800-400) = 0,71 also 71% of the prestige rewards. Now the average value for your Tiger II core is 2 x 990 / 2 = 990 prestige. This yields (800-900)/(800-400) = -0,25 ... well this means you get the minimal amount of prestige possible which on default is set to 20%. This is a huge difference.
However, this assumes that the formula is actually working as posted.

There is evidence that it does not and actually works like this: ((MaxPrestige-AvgUnitValue) ^ 2 ) / ((MaxPrestige-NormalPrestige) ^ 2) = Coefficient

Tarrak
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:44 am

You're right but it's probably a bug and it get hopefully fixed when the developers finally stop working day and night on Warhammer 40k and even with the bug there is still a difference in prestige gain between the two examples.

edahl1980
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:26 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by edahl1980 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:22 am

Tarrak wrote:I think you misunderstand the way the soft cap is calculated. Lets take a look at your example with 4 x PzIVs vs. 2 Tiger IIs. For simplicity lets assume they are the only units you are going to deploy and all of them are normal, non SE, units. The average unit value for your PzIV (assuming here the best variant J) is 4 x 516 / 4 = 516. This core yields you (800-516)/(800-400) = 0,71 also 71% of the prestige rewards. Now the average value for your Tiger II core is 2 x 990 / 2 = 990 prestige. This yields (800-900)/(800-400) = -0,25 ... well this means you get the minimal amount of prestige possible which on default is set to 20%. This is a huge difference.
What if i deploy 2x King Tigers and 2x PzIA?
That will average a little higher than 4 PzIVJ. But which 4 tanks would you put against IS2?
The PzI can lean back and watch the show while the Tigers progress.

I would argue for that with the soft cap. PzIV is even more useless than before. I used them before i was aware of the soft cap. As support for Tigers. Now i see no reason to do so as they make me lose prestige.

braccada
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:58 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by braccada » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:37 pm

2 Tigers have a higher average than 2 Tigers + 2 Panzer IVs. So the IVs increase your prestige income.

But I think you are taking the cap limit too serious. You are not supposed to stay unter the 400 average in 1943. This mechanic simply reduces the prestige income, it does not stop it. If you use Panzer Is you will earn more prestige, but will spend more by repairing and get destroyed. If you already have Tigers and some Panzer IVs for support and clean up you have a more historical mix and do not need to spend more prestige on upgrading. The cap only prevents turning a good unit mix into all overstrength Tigers.

So if your average unit value is lets say 600 that is absolutely ok, because you already have a good mix (hopefully :)) Don't waste money on overstrength for front line units, look out for them so you do not have to spend much on repairing and you will be fine. There are a lot of small things to maximize your prestige so even with the soft cap you get enough.
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035

MartyWard
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by MartyWard » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:45 pm

braccada wrote:The cap only prevents turning a good unit mix into all overstrength Tigers.
Why is that a 'bad' thing if that is how you want to play?

BiteNibbleChomp
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Lieutenant-General - Do 217E
Posts: 3225
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:35 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:03 am

MartyWard wrote:
braccada wrote:The cap only prevents turning a good unit mix into all overstrength Tigers.
Why is that a 'bad' thing if that is how you want to play?
Why can't they just make soft cap another checkbox like reform units.

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
Download: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tj4t11z3ttl142w/SCACW.zip/file

braccada
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:58 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by braccada » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:28 am

Why is that a 'bad' thing if that is how you want to play?
You are right, it is not! Checkbox might be a good thing.

I still think it is a good feature though and adds to the atmosphere of the game by reflecting the desperate situation in the east 1943. In my personal opinion I would suggest to increase prestige income with the general slider to tailor the game to your needs. This way you will have much more prestige, but still feel the harsh drop in the later stages.
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035

MartyWard
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by MartyWard » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:05 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
MartyWard wrote:
braccada wrote:The cap only prevents turning a good unit mix into all overstrength Tigers.
Why is that a 'bad' thing if that is how you want to play?
Why can't they just make soft cap another checkbox like reform units.

- BNC
That would be perfect.

Tarrak
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:23 pm

Until (if at all) the checkbox gets implemented just edit the config file and you can turn the soft cap on and off.

grenadier98
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by grenadier98 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:35 pm

Tarrak wrote:I think you misunderstand the way the soft cap is calculated. Lets take a look at your example with 4 x PzIVs vs. 2 Tiger IIs. For simplicity lets assume they are the only units you are going to deploy and all of them are normal, non SE, units. The average unit value for your PzIV (assuming here the best variant J) is 4 x 516 / 4 = 516. This core yields you (800-516)/(800-400) = 0,71 also 71% of the prestige rewards. Now the average value for your Tiger II core is 2 x 990 / 2 = 990 prestige. This yields (800-900)/(800-400) = -0,25 ... well this means you get the minimal amount of prestige possible which on default is set to 20%. This is a huge difference.
I'm confused. I've read in the other thread that the AvgUnitValue is calculated by "PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits" / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits rather than "PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits" / NumberOfDEPLOYEDUnits. If I understand your post correct, that would mean I would get more prestige by deploying 2 Tiger II and 2 Infantry instead of just 2 Tiger 2. This seems odd, because the idea of the softcap is to award players for achieving more with less equipment.
I'm back to the game after a few months leave and started GC 39 on Rommel. Now I've read some posts (Horsts test) which indicate that the softcap formula is broken. I like the idea of the softcap, but not the way it is implemented, the bug makes it even worse. I think I'll turn it off when I start the next campaign and stick to Rommel. It won't affect me in 39, so don't need to worry right now.

Tarrak
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:58 pm

Actually you may be right and the Average Unit Value may be calculated by PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits and not PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYEDUnits. At least this is what mulleto22 assumes in this thread. But the idea of the soft cap was to ensure a more historical core setup and with this method it's still best to stick with a pure Tiger core just use less of them. I guess we need either Rudankort here or some serious testing to be sure.

alkafluence
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:09 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by alkafluence » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:35 am

Tarrak, agreed. Only someone who can look at the codebase can truly confirm what happens with the softcsp in 1.20 and newer.

grenadier98
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by grenadier98 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:47 pm

Any chance the formula will be fixed soon and will work as intended?

Tarrak
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:10 am

grenadier98 wrote:Any chance the formula will be fixed soon and will work as intended?
Not before the Warhammer 40K game is released i am afraid. The Panzer Corps team is working now on it and they are on some external release deadline they need to keep due to some legal contracts. They are about to start the closed Beta according to the forum and they seems to be all totally busy with it.

grenadier98
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by grenadier98 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:23 am

Sad, but understandable. Thanks for the information Tarrak.

mulleto22
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by mulleto22 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:47 am

Any chance the formula will be fixed soon and will work as intended?
Being the one that brought up the matter that the soft cap does not work as advertised, let me comment on this:

a) I replayed the GCs in Manstein and Rommel difficulty, and got to DV in every scenario. Of course, knowing scenarios helped, as I had played them before (on Rommel). But I was far from knowing when and where counterattacks would occur, from example.

b) I managed to get up to 60.000 prestige in Rommel and 100k in Manstein before Softcap kicked in, which was at Olchovatka (1943, on Rommel) and Storming Stalingrad (1942, on Manstein). From that point on, I cruised quite comfortable on the prestige I had accumulated.

c) I did some careful planning on my core from early on, always keeping an eye on future costs of upgrades, when to overstrength, which transport to choose etc. One good example is the 10.5 leFH arty. As arty was always > 1/4 of my core, the type selected matters a lot. Many players choose the sFH15, which costs more and does almost nothing more considering the result of kills+suppression. The sFH15 kills more, but suppresses less. But it costs more, which is just a waste of money.

Also, I learned to use the StuG series to its full potential, which opened a bunch of new possibilities which I simply had never tried out.

And many players overlook cheap solutions like the Bf 109k, which does a lot less damage than a Fw190, but has higher initiative and is therefore a perfect unit to finish off enemies that have only few SP left;

d) Yes, you need King Tigers late in the game, those JS2 simply aren't beatable otherwise. But theres usually few JS2 on any map, so its perfectly ok to sport just a few KTs and mix them with Panthers and Tigers. On Manstein, I went all the way deep into 45 with 3 KTs.

e) ATs are another unit class I had totally underused in the past and have learned to aprreciate a lot.

So, careful planning of your setup and learning to use unit classes right is the key to getting along with the Soft Cap quite easily. Even on Manstein, where Overstrengthening all of your units to maximum is indispensable in 1945, I was hovering around an avg unit value of 600 in every scenario. In 1944 Manstein, I had an average of 530 prestige over all scenarios, thus giving me 45% prestige even with the "defect" soft cap calculation.

Indeed, after finishing the GCs I think that the current Soft Cap calculation is well as it is; while not working as advertised, it enforces good gameplay and leaves the player with large amounts of prestige even on the highest levels of difficulty. Also, a mix of units in the core is much more likely to occur, as you simply keep more low level units than without the soft cap. Leave Soft Cap as it is, thats my opinion.

Tarrak
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1183
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:01 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Tarrak » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:26 pm

Oh, mulleto22, when you are reading this thread anyway could i ask you for a favor? Check please this post. There is a confusion about how the average unit value for the softcap is exactly calculated. It's either PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits or PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYEDUnits.The explanation from Rudankort can be interpreted both ways. I know in your calculation you assumed the first and it lead to different results then expected. We assumed it's a bug with the calculation but maybe it's the different form of calculation. Can you re-check your data with the second option? If you still have all the data at your computer it shouldn't take long and i am really curious about it.

Resolute
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:25 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by Resolute » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:49 pm

I think some people put too much emphasis on the soft cap. What is often neglected that the increased costs for overstrengthing your units, which came with the patch, has a far bigger impact and to some extent the increased number of kills it takes to get your first hero. The only problem with the softcap as I see it, it becomes noticable far too late. When players get to 43, which takes quite a bit of time, and then notice they won't make it until the end frustration does kick in.

braccada
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:58 pm
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by braccada » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:41 pm

Resolute wrote:I think some people put too much emphasis on the soft cap. What is often neglected that the increased costs for overstrengthing your units, which came with the patch, has a far bigger impact and to some extent the increased number of kills it takes to get your first hero. The only problem with the softcap as I see it, it becomes noticable far too late. When players get to 43, which takes quite a bit of time, and then notice they won't make it until the end frustration does kick in.
Good point and I agree.

Meanwhile I added some numbers to the AAR of my Let's Play. I calculated the average unit cost of my deployed core, that should give people a better feeling for their prestige costs. Moreover I added total kills and kills per prestige to give a feeling for effectiveness. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035

And I think on Manstein I will go over 400 the next mission and can then verify the calculation for the soft cap.
Follow my Grand Let's Play series: Rommel, Manstein and Guderian
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=53035

MartyWard
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: Soft cap questions.

Post by MartyWard » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:30 am

Resolute wrote:I think some people put too much emphasis on the soft cap. What is often neglected that the increased costs for overstrengthing your units, which came with the patch, has a far bigger impact and to some extent the increased number of kills it takes to get your first hero. The only problem with the softcap as I see it, it becomes noticable far too late. When players get to 43, which takes quite a bit of time, and then notice they won't make it until the end frustration does kick in.
I think either the soft cap OR the increased over-strength/loss of over-strength when switching class would have been good. Both is just a killer.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”