AT

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grenadier98
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AT

Post by grenadier98 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:00 pm

I've read that many players start leveling AT units in the GC 40 for later use. That's an interesting idea, but until now I found AT guns not really useful because of their low initiative and because of the overall crappy models of self propolled guns in early years.
So I'd be happy to hear any tips you experienced AT gun users might be able to give. :)

Naxor
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Re: AT

Post by Naxor » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:29 pm

Im facing similar problem because I just started afrika korps campaign from the beginning. I only use early self propelled AT units (panzerjäger) against weakened enemy armor after dive bombers and artillery have done their job.

Loki1942
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Re: AT

Post by Loki1942 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:22 pm

The trick is to cultivate ATs early on, it can be a pain but just think of the nice stuff you get later on:)

captainjack
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Re: AT

Post by captainjack » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:41 pm

If developing AT, remember to use elite reinforcements as far as possible. AT is cheap so this isn't too much of a burden unless playing on Rommel difficulty or one of the other reduced prestige levels. But if short of prestige, pull badly damaged units out of combat and reinforce between scenarios.

The biggest problem is getting it into place without the truck having a bad day. I try to advance the armour screen, roll the AT trucks up behind. Tanks pull back behind dismounted AT to refuel while AT takes the counter attack. Of course this is much easier in a purely defensive scenario and harder in purely attacking scenarios, but there are usually counter attacks of some sort. At least the mobile ones (portee if playing allied corps otherwise the Panzerjager 1) can fight back if caught on the move.

boredatwork
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Re: AT

Post by boredatwork » Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:46 am

Edit the equipment file to make the 8.8cm Flak anti tank mode purchase-able.

Use the "Core" cheat in scenarios like Arras to add a core slot so you can deploy you flak/AT and use it in place of the auxiliary 8.8cm.

When you're ready to upgrade you just have to leave it in AT mode at the end of a scenario, and it should remain in that mode (and thus be upgradable as an AT) during the next deployment phase.

Razz1
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Re: AT

Post by Razz1 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:43 am

They may have low initiative but they get plus initiative when attacked.

They can make a difference between winning and loosing in later scenario's like Bagration.

One or two88 AT's with experience and a Jag Tiger in that scenario can get you to a win.

grenadier98
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Re: AT

Post by grenadier98 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:48 pm

So you actually level towed AT guns in GC 40?

ThvN
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Re: AT

Post by ThvN » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:31 pm

To be honest, price-wise, I think the towed AT units are false economy: A 5cm PaK with truck or 3.7cm PaK with halftrack is about as expensive as a Panzerjäger, but without the move+fire advantage. So I only use the Panzerjäger during GC40, and keep them until something better comes along about two years later, like the StuG IIIF. They can be difficuly to keep alive, because they have very weak defenses (esp. air defense), but reinforcing them is cheap.

The only way to get decent experience with them is to support them with other units and set them up so they can get low-risk combats. Usually I buy a couple and field one at a time; the one with the lowest experience is deployed, if they are maxed out I buy another one or start trying to get a hero.

Some tricks I use to level them apart from the general tactics (suppressing, ambush baiting, etc.).

- Surround expensive AI units and fire the AT unit first, so that it can profit from the mass attack bonus.
- Attack low-initiative hard targets like forts and strongpoints. I use this for the 88mm FlaK as well, which is an excellent bunker-buster.

BTW, there is a relatively cheap way to get experienced AT units in GC's 44/45. I buy some StuG IV, and use them mostly switched into artillery. This way they build experience very quickly and cheaply.

captainjack
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Re: AT

Post by captainjack » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:55 am

I've got five or maybe 6 towed 37s up to 2* in 39 and 40 when I was in my AT-using phase. I use towed PaK 50 sometimes as a way of getting a PaK 37 up to 3* in 41, as once you have the PaK 37, the upgrade to the 50 is cheap for a big improvement in performance. Once in position and backed with artillery they do a good job on T34s.

In the standard rules, the upgrade to 75mm is worthless as it adds only +1 Hard attack (for roughly doubling or tripling the shot weight) and +1 to soft attack (though almost every other 75mm/76/77 AT gets SA 4). This doesn't matter much as Marders start to become available about then and Stug 3 not long after.

At some point before the Marder arrives, the Panzerjager 1 isn't good enough to be worth fielding. I retire them for a few scenarios or maybe buy a new one and see if I can get that to earn a few stars from new.

Up to 44 East, a new Elefant will be destroyed quickly, but a 2* Elefant will usually cope with KV85 and IS1 quite well, and at 3* it's very effective if you can suppress a few points first - 24HA + 6 experience bonus will cut open most things. Suddenly all those 2 and 3* Pak37 start to look useful! If you have enough spares, they also come in handy for the switchable Stug IV - instant 3* artillery that can survive combat!

Yes it takes some planning and a bit of work learning how many to develop and how to keep them alive to earn experience but it's quite effective. I've also used the portees in Allied Corps with some success (nevermore than 1 per game) They are remarkably effective later on, because they are soft targets and most tank SA rises much slower than HA - eg King Tiger has about 8 SA and 24 HA, so where your hard half track is ripped apart, the soft unit dusts itself off, runs away and reinforces.

The AT path is not for everyone, but can provide an interesting experience. Incidentally, it's probably the only way to cope with playing tank-free (not my idea!)

proline
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Re: AT

Post by proline » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:28 am

I disagree with you that early AT units are bad. Panzerjäger actually hit quite hard and don't cost a lot. The key is to do some good suppression to your target and use mass attack as others have mentioned. AT units are solid on defense so they don't usually require much support. They also do a ton of damage to transports and recon, allowing you to save tank shots for other things.

Make no mistake, AT units are the only way to cost-effectively kill the hordes of Russian armor that make up the vast majority of GC scenarios. You need them.

It's a little off-topic, but one of the big differences between the original PG and PC is that anti-tank are generally pointless in PG because German tanks are more than adequate, while in PC you need their cost effectiveness. I love that about PC as I think having anti-tank matter adds a lot to the game. Sadly, recon still has no place.

captainjack
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Re: AT

Post by captainjack » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:30 pm

proline -

! agree -the Panzerjager is a very good AT unit, especially with a star or two and well worth converting an experienced Pak37 as soon as they become available. There is a period where they lose effectiveness and it pays to rest them so that they don't lose experienced when reformed but it's only a few scenarios while you wait for Marders or Stug3 to become available, and you have reasonably good tanks available to cover in that time.

I've been trying out the French equivalent - 47mm AT on a truck and a 25mm en portee - in my own mods. They are particularly good in defensive scenarios against the AI (which has poor scouting skills) in their historic role of ambushing, and disappearing fast to another location to do it again. The 25mm portee AT is surprisingly effective in 1940 in the ambush role and also for finishing off damaged tanks (maybe not Panzer 3) despite base HA 4, and as you mentioned for the Panzerjager it is devastating against transports. The speed of a portee mounted gun makes it very good for finishing off damaged units or exposed transports.

And again, in the late game, Elefants are very definitely your friend. Everybody should have at least one.

rezaf
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Re: AT

Post by rezaf » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:59 am

proline wrote:Make no mistake, AT units are the only way to cost-effectively kill the hordes of Russian armor that make up the vast majority of GC scenarios. You need them.
Maybe this has changed considerably in the latest patches, but by the time I finished the DLCs, this was not my experience at all.
The late AT units pack a heavy punch, but they have a crippling weakness - low ammo - and are almost useless against soft targets. Especially the ammo is a massive problem, since every turn spent rearming is a turn not spent disposing of russian tanks. I want to say they're also less mobile, but it might just have been a case of hero distribution.
Anyway, the tactics to go for in the late GC scenarios was HIGHLY experienced tanks. The AI wouldn't dare attack them with it's tanks, so you could use them to stem the tide of russian offensives, and then slowly pluck off the enemy tanks one by one during your turns. The best russian tanks would have to be softened up by artillery and aircraft. Taking significant losses is prohibitive anyhow, so the higher cost-effectiveness of AT is kinda lost.

Also, most scenarios have a low unit-cap, so the price of a unit is a non-issue - it's always better to bring a strong unit vs. a weak one.
I understand the flexible prestige cap is a game changer there, but I luckily finished the DLCs before it was introduced - I don't like the idea at all.
_____
rezaf

edahl1980
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Re: AT

Post by edahl1980 » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:31 am

rezaf wrote:
proline wrote:Make no mistake, AT units are the only way to cost-effectively kill the hordes of Russian armor that make up the vast majority of GC scenarios. You need them.
Maybe this has changed considerably in the latest patches, but by the time I finished the DLCs, this was not my experience at all.
The late AT units pack a heavy punch, but they have a crippling weakness - low ammo - and are almost useless against soft targets. Especially the ammo is a massive problem, since every turn spent rearming is a turn not spent disposing of russian tanks. I want to say they're also less mobile, but it might just have been a case of hero distribution.
Anyway, the tactics to go for in the late GC scenarios was HIGHLY experienced tanks. The AI wouldn't dare attack them with it's tanks, so you could use them to stem the tide of russian offensives, and then slowly pluck off the enemy tanks one by one during your turns. The best russian tanks would have to be softened up by artillery and aircraft. Taking significant losses is prohibitive anyhow, so the higher cost-effectiveness of AT is kinda lost.

Also, most scenarios have a low unit-cap, so the price of a unit is a non-issue - it's always better to bring a strong unit vs. a weak one.
I understand the flexible prestige cap is a game changer there, but I luckily finished the DLCs before it was introduced - I don't like the idea at all.
_____
rezaf
The elephant has almost the same punch as a Tiger II, but cost almost 400 less.
In 42 i use Stug to counter T-34's and KV's, they do better than the PzIV. In 43 the Elephant is a mobile pillbox and they stop anything thrown at them in open terrain. A 4star, 14strenght elephant in 1943 is about as badass as your will see in this game.

rezaf
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Re: AT

Post by rezaf » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:42 am

TigerIII wrote:In 42 i use Stug to counter T-34's and KV's, they do better than the PzIV. In 43 the Elephant is a mobile pillbox and they stop anything thrown at them in open terrain. A 4star, 14strenght elephant in 1943 is about as badass as your will see in this game.
I didn't say the Elephant is weak, but it has only five ammo and even less fuel than a Tiger II.
_____
rezaf

MartyWard
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Re: AT

Post by MartyWard » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:03 pm

The only AT I ever used in any quantity was the Jagdpanther. It has reasonable ammo and armor, good attack and is fast. The others were weak on defense, poor on attack or slow as molasses.

Magic1111
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Re: AT

Post by Magic1111 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:35 am

MartyWard wrote:The only AT I ever used in any quantity was the Jagdpanther. It has reasonable ammo and armor, good attack and is fast. The others were weak on defense, poor on attack or slow as molasses.
In the early war the Stug IIIF/8 and IIIG with many experience are in my opinion very good AT! :wink:

MartyWard
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Re: AT

Post by MartyWard » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:45 pm

Magic1111 wrote:
MartyWard wrote:The only AT I ever used in any quantity was the Jagdpanther. It has reasonable ammo and armor, good attack and is fast. The others were weak on defense, poor on attack or slow as molasses.
In the early war the Stug IIIF/8 and IIIG with many experience are in my opinion very good AT! :wink:
They are ok but I usually only have 2-3 of them. Towards the end I may have 6-7 JP units as they are the only AT units that can stand up to the Russian tanks and not suffer a lot of losses. I look at them as a Panther Lite :)

Magic1111
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Re: AT

Post by Magic1111 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:05 pm

MartyWard wrote: They are ok but I usually only have 2-3 of them. Towards the end I may have 6-7 JP units as they are the only AT units that can stand up to the Russian tanks and not suffer a lot of losses. I look at them as a Panther Lite :)
I have 5-6 (incl. SE) StuG IIIG and/or StuG IV in my core, let they collect experience and upgrade then to Jagdpanther! After that I have 5-6 Jagdpanther with a lot of experience! :D

edahl1980
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Re: AT

Post by edahl1980 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:30 pm

Magic1111 wrote:
MartyWard wrote: They are ok but I usually only have 2-3 of them. Towards the end I may have 6-7 JP units as they are the only AT units that can stand up to the Russian tanks and not suffer a lot of losses. I look at them as a Panther Lite :)
I have 5-6 (incl. SE) StuG IIIG and/or StuG IV in my core, let they collect experience and upgrade then to Jagdpanther! After that I have 5-6 Jagdpanther with a lot of experience! :D
How do you have SE Stug's?
Or did i misunderstand what you wrote?

MartyWard
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Re: AT

Post by MartyWard » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:55 pm

TigerIII wrote:
Magic1111 wrote:
MartyWard wrote: They are ok but I usually only have 2-3 of them. Towards the end I may have 6-7 JP units as they are the only AT units that can stand up to the Russian tanks and not suffer a lot of losses. I look at them as a Panther Lite :)
I have 5-6 (incl. SE) StuG IIIG and/or StuG IV in my core, let they collect experience and upgrade then to Jagdpanther! After that I have 5-6 Jagdpanther with a lot of experience! :D
How do you have SE Stug's?
Or did i misunderstand what you wrote?
I think you may get one in the West GC.

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