Infantry Campaign.

[stormbringer3]

I played Steel Panthers for years and had a lot of fun and success playing an infantry campaign. No tanks, but support units like StuGs, anti-tank, artillery, etc. Is that possible in this game? I lean toward no because when reading the threads about this game people seem to get creamed end game even with their high end tanks like TigerII etc. However any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[TSPC37730]

IMO - no. Although this is an interesting idea, there are some scenarios down the road which are just too armor-centric for this idea to work. While infantry certainly has a role it the game, over relying on them as the back bone of your corps just won't do it every time. Nor will any other unit type. I think that you'll find that the same unit mix - no matter what it might be - just won't work for every scenario. Instead, you'll have to tailor your corps from scenario to scenario as you progress through the game.

[hugh2711]

you might like to have a look at nikivdd's alternate grand campaign at http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 47&t=53153 . Since all the maps are NON-HISTORICAL and since it starts out small, the earlier scenarios are effectively an infantry campaign. I found it very enjoyable. you only get lots of tanks in the much later scenarios. you could design your own maps and scenarios however you like e.g. with an infantry core and all the support units you choose as auxiliary units that dont carry over through the campaign, no tanks, no airforce.
you also might also like to look at Konstantin's napoleonic wars campaign at http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 47&t=76951 . no tanks there
And of course BiteNibbleChomps's ww1 mod is very infantry centric http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 47&t=47239

I woud do one myself but I would have to actually learn how to use the scenario editor!........

[Panzerpimp]

Is that possible in this game?

It is possible.

In general the possibility depends on the difficulty level.

On Rommel/Manstein It may be impossible...
I'd like to see It done by one of AAR veterans on Ultimate level.

From my experience: (playing on colonel with AI level 2, without reloads and various "home rules" handicaps)

Vanilla game (with slightly modified equipment file):

1) I successfully finished Grand Campaigns 1939, 1940 and 1941 using only 2 types of units: Kavallerie and mobile artillery. It was enjoyable experience. I concluded that Kavallerie is the great unit actually.

2) Finished GC 39, 40, 41 with 3 types of units: Fallschirmjager, towed AT, towed artillery. It was painful, but fun. Sometimes I managed a successful paradrop in the rear (where It is allowed by scenario), but most times vengeful AI chased me all over the map - casualties were severe. (Mostly in 1940 surprisingly)

3) There was another one crazy campaign: I played GC 39 with modified equipment file: added japanese and finnish units from Soviet Corps to german equipment and played with them. I don't remember the details very well now - I had that japanese infantry with sword and finnish ski infantry, some artillery, maybe some other units. I finished the campaign.

4) Started Allied corps with similar home rules, but didn't finish It. There are great elite infantry like sas, rangers etc., but I guess the late missions there will be painful anyway... Maybe I'll return to "inf. only AC" someday.

4) I'm planning to play the Sealion campaign with Kradschutzen, towed AA and towed artillery only. Maybe It will work.

I call these above mentioned campaigns "Panzer perversions"...

Mods:

BiteNibbleChomps's ww1 mod

Great mod.

Konstantin's napoleonic wars campaign at viewtopic.php?f=147&t=76951 . no tanks there

Good mod also. But I should mention that there actually are tanks there - generals units and heavy cavalry are ersatz tanks.

nikivdd's alternate grand campaign

Masterpiece of modding. Highly recommended.

[captainjack]

Not buying tanks (so only use only use SE, special units or captured tanks) you can still do fine through 1940 and into 1941. I think that if you never used any tanks it would get difficult once in Russia, but maybe aircraft would compensate well enough until you could use decent SPAT (Marders or Stugs).

However, using only infantry+towed units could be an interesting challenge to see how far you could get. US Corps and Nico's Italian version of AK would be good preparation for "no tanks" as the US and Italian tanks are a bit rubbish.

[stormbringer3]

I'm still toying with this idea. One thing i think would hapen is a lot more marginal victories. Other than the Campaign path at certain points what else do you get penalized with a marginal victory? My guess is Prestige points but how many on average?
Thanks.

[hurly]

I played Steel Panthers for years and had a lot of fun and success playing an infantry campaign. No tanks, but support units like StuGs, anti-tank, artillery, etc. Is that possible in this game? I lean toward no because when reading the threads about this game people seem to get creamed end game even with their high end tanks like TigerII etc. However any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks.

My first reaction to this was

Holy Battle Nerd Batman

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[Panzerpimp]

I'm still toying with this idea.

Try It, It is a very interesting challenge.

Other than the Campaign path at certain points what else do you get penalized with a marginal victory?

Depends on the campaign. In many campaigns the prestige rewards are basically the same. Actually sometimes you can get more prestige for MV.

Examples:

In vanilla wehrmacht campaign you can get more prestige for MVs in some scenarios.
In Allied corps, Afrika Korps and Soviet Corps prestige rewards are almost always the same. (If you're not losing)
In Grand Campaigns, Sea Lion and US Corps you'll get more prestige for DV's.

There are other factors as well: potential prestige points for capturing flags and captured equipment that you can sell for prestige. And also the prestige for forced surrenders and the prestige per turn etc. etc.
Game rules also contribute to this. I played infantry challenges without reloads on normal dice and not using reform units and I had some situations where DV is obviously possible but isn't worth It - so I played cautiously.

[hugh2711]

have you seen this post stormbringer 3?, i am looking forward to it greatly. http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 47&t=81650

[stormbringer3]

Thanks hugh2711. I was not aware of that.

[captainjack]

One thing i think would hapen is a lot more marginal victories

Three scenarios in on 39 East and I'm 3 DV from 3!
Maybe I should quit while I'm ahead.

[hurly]

Just to add a little controversy (speaking about Grand Campaign)

I don't waste any Prestige on the Panzer 38(t) (never really did, cause it has no upgrade path and it is a Sauerkraut Unit anyway)

Are there any Tanks available in 39 worth a Core Slot ?
(except the late Scenarios the Panzer III F which is also a Sauerkraut unit but has an Upgrade Path )
maybe not even in 40 but you need to build the experience at some time as Green units become more and more of a liability later


In 39 the Panzer 1a or 1b as well as the IIc can be hardly considered an improvement over any available Infantry at the Time so why even bother ? I mean the 2 Panzer 1 i get from the Starting Core see Action in the first scenario and then they sit out the rest of the way.

I mean I currently have taken a break from playing, so I'm not really into the Topic.
But inspired by this thread looked into several Saved Cores and realized I don't buy any Tanks at all (I bought a Total of 2 Tanks all the way and these are 2 Panzer II I bought early on to give them some easy Experience and with the Plan to up them to a Flamm later on. Well the 2 Flamms sit there beside the Panzer I quite as rusty as they have not seen much Action since most likely Stalingrad, but not sure about it, it's some time ago), as you find plenty of them along your path anyway and the SE Slot Tanks shoulder the load all the Time

In 1944 East I checked the Starting Core and some save games I still have and in Vilna which is about Scenario 8 or 9 of 11 I checked my available units and saw the 2 Panzer I from Posnan covered with rust in my arsenal as none of them is more than an afterthought since Scenario 1 (I could disband them for Prestige but like my wife always says I am a hunter and collector and never throw things into the trash can --- Hey maybe I can still use these 2 sometime maybe in late 45 when I need a late sacrificial lamb or someone to take the Final Victory Hex (that would be something eh ? Winning the Grand Campaign East cause a Panzer I takes the last Hex needed )

I mean this does not mean I won't use any Tanks at all and I don't think you can go all the way without Tanks, but the Kerschers, Rondorfs and SE Tanks I get, with a little help from the Chars and KV1 Variants (I used the Matildas quite a bit as well but thats cause I like them not because I think they are really good) depending on the Timeline, do the job well enough for me.

But I think you go well without a lot of trouble through 39 and 40 maybe things get a bit more complicated in 41 and certainly in 42 but these are doable as well if you can cover the distances on the maps. And you have to adjust on your strategy a bit, but that also depends on the Heroes your well seasoned Veteran Infantry picks up along the way.

From 43 on you will be in serious trouble as the number of Russian Tanks rises considerably and also the Russian Infantry is not the Walkover Garbage from earlier Campaigns anymore.

In 44 and 45 when defending is more and more important going Tankless will be very very hard and that's not so much the Hordes of opposing Tanks rushing on to the Frontline. The Russian Arty will haunt your Infantry mercilessly.
At least for my playing style I usually built a Wall of Heavy Armour backed up by Stugs from the arty Family cause they can resist Enemy Arty Fire better than than Towed ones which are relegated to the 3rd Line out of reach of the Enemy but well in range to deplete and surpress the First Line of Attackers.
If I'm forced to use Infantry up front this setup will not work as it will either get crushed by Arty Fire or surpressed so they will most likely surrender. The beautiful Thing with an Experienced Tiger on the Frontline especially when backed up by Arty. Infantry if they dare to attack can not touch it cause the Arty Fire stalls them and Tanks or Sp Anti Tanks have their pants full also so you can even get picky on your turn which one surrenders with the most cash for your wallet

Not saying it will get impossible by then to advance with Infantry only, but the bleeding of Experienced Units will be enormous and despite being on the Cheap Side for Replacement Costs I think the Campaign will stall sooner or later.

But I'm babbling and losing my Point

I think Tanks are important especially late in the War but I don't think it is necessary to buy a lot (if any) of them in Grand Campaign.

that said I don't buy Anti Tank, Recon and Fighters (not even Infantry as you get so many of them awarded) either but have (Over)loads of Arty and Bombers in the bin but that's another story

[hugh2711]

I agree with alot of what hurly says. In the basic grand campaign I only buy one tank and that is a cheap p38 to get me through to modlin and the freebie albert kerschner (the one with good spotting). Apart from that i make sure (by disbanding infantry) that ALL my SE units are tanks. Occasionally for a really short period of time i might use one of the really good freebie tanks but not for long as I dont invest in those technological dead ends. As mentioned above by 43 east you really need good (i.e. heroed and experienced) tanks to stop the numerically superior hordes. My experience with battlefield europe would suggest you can put off for a while building up a good tank force by supplementing what you have with stug 3f's and above, but the key to getting through the later east camapigns is a heroed and experienced tankforce. If you use green ones they take alot of losses which grinds you down too much. The problem with even the stugs is that because the earlier models (pre-3f) are comparatively weak you dont have enough time to build up enough heroes and experience to make them lossless killers. However if you start right from the beginning (norway) with SE tanks AND keep them up to date with the latest model; with the addition of albert k you can build up a great force that takes little losses and of course only albert k counts towards the softcap. without the softcap the game just becomes: 'just buy and use the biggest tank you can get'.

In nikivdd's excelllent revamp of the grand campaign you get an excellent freebie heroed tank to start so you dont even have to buy one!, the irony is if you go for the ALL SE tank route towards the later campaigns it doesnt get used that much even as the latest model because you have so many better/really good tanks which dont count toward the softcap.

[captainjack]

I agree with Hugh2711 about not buying tanks, even though I play with soft cap off (I prefer self-imposed limits). With Nico's 1939 purchase mode you get two hero tanks in 1939 (the starting Panzer 3, Kerscher) plus a captured Somua, two Char B1 and a Matilda. That's six reasonable tanks plus any SE ones by the end of 1940, and with more to come in 1941. Even with standard 1939 you will have five reasonable tanks. These can't be upgraded cheaply, but if you get decent heroes and 3* it becomes worthwhile.

Quite apart frmo that, infantry with artillery back up can withstand most tanks up to about 1941, but towed AT guns can be useful if you can get them into combat. You can bring them up to 2* quite easily in 1939, and if you make an effort you can get some to 3* in 1940. I have had some success upgrading them to PaK50mm in the past but usually it's best to wait until Stug3F is available unless you have farmed a lot up to 2 or 3*.

I'm using Nico's V29 equipment file where the 37mm PaK has 2 move, which means it can get into position to be useful against bunkers and tanks. In principle, the SP Panzerjager 1 should be more use because it can get into position more often, but until you get a Stug to provide defensive fire backup it often ends up too exposed (I blame the general...).

[ivanov]

There is a user made 22. Infanterie Division Campaign, for Panzer General II. It is excellent. All those PG2 campaigns with historical cores, are waaaayyy more fun, that the semi-historical PC campaigns, that require players to build massive, tank heavy cores.

[ab067]

I played Steel Panthers for years and had a lot of fun and success playing an infantry campaign. No tanks, but support units like StuGs, anti-tank, artillery, etc. Is that possible in this game? I lean toward no because when reading the threads about this game people seem to get creamed end game even with their high end tanks like TigerII etc. However any opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks.

I have and still do play PG/AG/PGF not as panzer general, but as Luftwaffe General.

My infantry are all Fallschirmjager, I use Stukas in place of artillery, some small AT and the rest a mix of Fighters and bombers.

My ground troops are just what airborne infantry would have, ie no tanks, no recce, no tracked AT, etc.

The challenge is weather.

In the campaigns where the victory choice are too challenging in some scenarios I will change the outcome to allow progression to the next scenario.

I'll try it on PzC and see how it turns out.

[Panzerpimp]

My infantry are all Fallschirmjager

I'll try it on PzC and see how it turns out.

I tried something like this. (Fallschirmjager core) It's quite interesting. On the other hand It's a world of pain.

[ab067]

Just played Barbarossa, killing off my panzers and buying Paras, JU87s, etc

It worked fine. Nice thing I discovered was I can carry small artillery and AT in the JU52. Couldn't do that in PGF.

I changed the subsequent scenario from Kiev to Poland and my core transferred ok.

When I find 1 or 2 scenarios I like, I'll set up a loop in the campaign to play these scenarios several times over to simulate a summer campaign in the same area.

It's my version of quick and dirty campaigns that I played in PGF.

[edahl1980]

IMO - no. Although this is an interesting idea, there are some scenarios down the road which are just too armor-centric for this idea to work. While infantry certainly has a role it the game, over relying on them as the back bone of your corps just won't do it every time. Nor will any other unit type. I think that you'll find that the same unit mix - no matter what it might be - just won't work for every scenario. Instead, you'll have to tailor your corps from scenario to scenario as you progress through the game.

From 44 and out its all about armor.
I actually prefer grand campaign pre-43. After its about having King Tigers and grinding through hordes of crappy Soviet steel.

[captainjack]

I've just finished Lillehammer and have not used tanks or recon except for the specials in the early Poland scenario. I've had all DV except for a deliberate MV to play Wysgorod, and when I left Modlin fortress with a single point on the last turn.

Combat is fine - infantry backed by plenty of artillery is defensively very good at this stage, but I have had a few times where lack of speed was a bit of a challenge (lack of petrol on the Kradschutzen). So far I've had no big dramas apart from almost losing Oleh Dir who ended a turn isolated on 1 point. The biggest downer is that now that I want SE infantry, all I've had is tanks although selling the tanks has at least left me with plenty of prestige. I suspect it will be much harder once I get to France, although Jagdpanzer 1 and Stug might be a useful team.