Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators

ClaireRedfieldU
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by ClaireRedfieldU » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:19 pm

WE NEED TO CALL GOOSE_2 TO ANSWER AND EXPLAIN THIS SITUATION FOR TODAY ENOUGH DISPUTES...

Parallax
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Parallax » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:28 pm

a432 wrote:but the same is true he cannot prove he didn't cheat. In a case like this you do not assume one is innocent you assume that they are guilty.
There is presumption of innocence. Goose said he is cheater - this is the problem. He could suspect him in cheating and that's normal, but if you blame someone in cheating you should provide some evidences. Long interval is circumstantial evidence, you can't disqualify someone without strong evidences.

Right now we know, he make his moves very slowly. We can track his new tourney games and watch, how good he is with time limits. He is famous russian PC community player. The best, as i know, but if he is a cheater, i want to know this for sure. Long periods is not enough to call him a cheater, at least in civilized countries :wink:

a432
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by a432 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:38 pm

This is not law. This is a tournament. There is not presumption of innocence. In fact there is presumption of guilt. Long interval is the only and best evidence that can be brought against a suspect cheater. There is clear evidence of this happen not just once but MULTIPLE TIMES!

There is clear and strong evidence of multiple ban worthy level infraction made by the player rishat. Not the same can be said for his opponent.

There should be no argument weather rishat should be banned. He clearly violated the rules and received the correct punishment. He gets special treatment because he is popular? He cheated plan and simple, he also admits to doing the violation multiple times. This is very black and white here.
Last edited by a432 on Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sn0wball
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by sn0wball » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:40 pm

Perhaps everyone involved in this dispute should take a step back and reconsider what this is about. This is a non-profit, informal tournament in an objectively obscure computer game. Winning or losing doesn´t mean anything in the real world. It is simply not important.

If somebody uses this kind of cheating against me, well, too bad, but so what? If I were to be kicked out of this tournament because I came under suspicion of cheating. well, too bad, but so what?

Actually, what is happening here right now bothers me much more. These accusations, name calling, conspiracy theories, fraction building and what have you is what I detest most in online platforms. This is much worse than cheating OR being kicked out of the tournament.

If the organizer of the tournament sees an infraction of HIS rules and makes a decision about HIS tournament, then that is fine by me, however it is.

Parallax
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Parallax » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:03 pm

a432 wrote:There is not presumption of innocence. In fact there presumption of guilt.
Hypocrisy is my favourite christian sin, Goose :D
a432 wrote:Long interval is the only and best evidence that can be brought against a suspect cheater.
That means, there are no evidences at all
a432 wrote:He clearly violated the rules...
Which one? He was thinking to long? :P
a432 wrote:He gets special treatment because he is popular?
I will repeat my suggestion one more time. We think he is a cheater, cause he is using lot of time for his moves. We can give him time limits for his new games. If he is a cheater, his gameplay will be worsen, but if he is not, he will crush his opponents as usual. I think that's fair, Goose

StefanDK
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by StefanDK » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:56 pm

I am having more technical issues with the game than normally and not time enough to deal with all this.

So I have decided to quit the tournament.

Thank you, Goose_2, for all your work.

I wish you all the best of luck in the tournament.

goose_2
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by goose_2 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:07 pm

sn0wball wrote:Perhaps everyone involved in this dispute should take a step back and reconsider what this is about. This is a non-profit, informal tournament in an objectively obscure computer game. Winning or losing doesn´t mean anything in the real world. It is simply not important.

If somebody uses this kind of cheating against me, well, too bad, but so what? If I were to be kicked out of this tournament because I came under suspicion of cheating. well, too bad, but so what?

Actually, what is happening here right now bothers me much more. These accusations, name calling, conspiracy theories, fraction building and what have you is what I detest most in online platforms. This is much worse than cheating OR being kicked out of the tournament.

If the organizer of the tournament sees an infraction of HIS rules and makes a decision about HIS tournament, then that is fine by me, however it is.

Thanks you my friend. My thinking exactly. This is very much appreciated.

Everybody take a chill pill and calm down. This is a game meant for fun, if you are not having fun than you shouldn't play.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ

Intenso82
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Intenso82 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:36 pm

Interestingly, when playing in the multiplayer scenario with mods, I had similar glitches with non-displaying the opponent's move.
The good news for me is that it's not a mod issue (as I thought before).
The bad news, it turns out many players face this problem in the vanilla game.
Is it known why this bug occurs? Is it a game problem, Computer or Server? Will it be fixed?

If multiplayer is simultaneously exposed to such a bug and cheat.
Probably organizers of the tournament, it is worth considering the introduction of manual post-round control aka "doping test" :-)
To separate bugs and cheats, if this is so important to the players.
When they will manually view the statistics of games downloads and decide whether the downloads were the result of a bug or a cheat.
If use only the automatic ban system, you can get false positive triggering.
What can not always exclude players from the tournament correctly.
That in tournament level games may not look good.
[MOD] RUSSIA AT WAR:1941 - http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=75743

Striped_Soul
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Striped_Soul » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:32 pm

So looks like,here is not enough evidence that Rishat was cheated, on the other side here is not enough proof, that he is not...
No doubt, Rishat is very strong and skilled player and i want to believe that he did fair play.
Goose, it's up to you, but i think Rishat deserve a chance to continue tournament.. Imho, good thing would be to vote..

ratprince
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by ratprince » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:00 am

agree with snowball.

This is a game. This level of debate is embarrassing and essentially nonsensical. Goose is the king/ruler/arbiter/judge/jury/executioner in all things related to the game. If he feels the guy gets axed, he gets axed.

If your technical/life issues are such that you have a collapse of the game 14 times or 80...or whatever, over the course of just TWO scenarios...you should probably not play until those get resolved. I don't have a stellar game rig and have had 80 some turns played back and forth this tourney now with zero reloads. So, anecdotally, i see suspicion with those kinds of numbers.

And, the "side" taking and boycott response is simply ridiculous. Its a fun little game and a minor competitive tourney setup by a cool guy so we can all play toy soldiers. Everyone just relax and remember this isn't the real world. There are more important things to be worried about.

ratprince

fcastrotello
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by fcastrotello » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:55 am

Hi to everyone in the tournament. Let's continue supporting the tournament by playing. The rules and fair play must be respected, if a decision must be taken by the organizer, we should assume it was taken with the information available. Good games and decisions for everyone.

huckc
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by huckc » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:43 am

ratprince wrote:agree with snowball.

This is a game. This level of debate is embarrassing and essentially nonsensical. Goose is the king/ruler/arbiter/judge/jury/executioner in all things related to the game. If he feels the guy gets axed, he gets axed.

If your technical/life issues are such that you have a collapse of the game 14 times or 80...or whatever, over the course of just TWO scenarios...you should probably not play until those get resolved. I don't have a stellar game rig and have had 80 some turns played back and forth this tourney now with zero reloads. So, anecdotally, i see suspicion with those kinds of numbers.

And, the "side" taking and boycott response is simply ridiculous. Its a fun little game and a minor competitive tourney setup by a cool guy so we can all play toy soldiers. Everyone just relax and remember this isn't the real world. There are more important things to be worried about.

ratprince
Agreed, the level of persecution complex, brigading, shouting in all caps, and slinging not so thinly veiled nationalist bigotry ("civilized countries" :roll:) is embarrassing. I'd expect more sense and maturity from a child.

rishat
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by rishat » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:30 am

goose_2 wrote: Everybody take a chill pill and calm down. This is a game meant for fun, if you are not having fun than you shouldn't play.
Why did you lie to my opponent that I rebooted 80 times each turn? Are you having fun? That doesn't entertain me at all. They blame my honest name here, but in fact you are a cheat. Using your unlimited power, you are meanly clearing your way to victory.
As an organizer of tournaments, you have forever discredited yourself. And you are discussed not only in this forum. Next time many people will think, whether it is good to participate in tournament if you are its organizer. Looking at your lawlessness, some players began to move away from the tournament demonstratively.
I offer you the only possible option, in which both of us can save face:
You restore me in the tournament, provided that if I have at least one restart in the future, then in this scenario I will be counted defeat. If there are several reboots in the scenario, they will throw me out of the tournament. , I'm ready to replay the first two rounds, if someone doubts that I honestly won my opponents.
If you agree to these conditions, the scandal will stop, we will forget everything, and the strongest will win the tournament honestly.

Robterdam
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Robterdam » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:31 am

I vote for Greece as map for my next defeat (s). My vote for king and ruler of the tournament goes to.... Goose. His word = the law. :D

My opponent herrmann is killing me in Norway from both sides. Game(s)should be finished by the end of this week.

btw. i did manage a late win with the Germans in Poland (pfiew!). If (!) i lose both Norway games... ? That means i am down and out the tourney?

Anyway. Have fun playing everybody!

Lifever
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Lifever » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:43 am

Robterdam wrote:btw. i did manage a late win with the Germans in Poland (pfiew!). If (!) i lose both Norway games... ? That means i am down and out the tourney?
You just lose scenarios, not battles. So Poland counted just as one loss. You got an [x] there, if you will.
In which way you won (both sides, only faster with one side like in Poland in our case or double loss) only affects match-making for the next round (maybe rounds - will show).
If you are defeated in 3 different scenarios you are out. So 2[x] are still one more chance. Three times [x] and you are out.

Therefore eliminations start after the Low Countries essentially.
If you lose Norway, you still got one more chance to avoid the loss of another scenario.

Best of luck,
Marius

AlbertoC
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by AlbertoC » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:48 am

Folks, let's calm down please.

First off, Goose excluded Rishat from the tournament because we asked him to do it. It's not an initiative he personally took, it originated from us at Slitherine.

Our system showed several irregularities in the player's online behaviour, showing a very different download and upload ratio in PBEM. While this is no absolute proof that Rishat was cheating, for the purposes of this tournament we cannot take any risk. It is a difficult situation but we need to safeguard the integrity of the tournament first and foremost and make sure that it follows the rules of fair play.

Stop flaming on this thread and stick to discussing the ongoing games please. Rishat, if you want to appeal to the decision please do so by mail or PM on the forum.

One last thing: Goose is putting a lot of effort into managing the tournament. It's an enormous task, and he's only doing it because he cares about the game and its community. You can be sure though that any decision of this type (such as excluding a player from the tournament) originates from Slitherine, so don't blame Goose. He didn't lie, he only did what we asked him to. So yes, keep this thread clean, no more flaming blease.

Parallax
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by Parallax » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:21 pm

AlbertoC wrote:Our system showed several irregularities in the player's online behaviour, showing a very different download and upload ratio in PBEM (over 80 infractions in Panzer Corps). While this is no absolute proof that Rishat was cheating, for the purposes of this tournament we cannot take any risk. It is a difficult situation but we need to safeguard the integrity of the tournament first and foremost and make sure that it follows the rules of fair play.
This tourney is the only way to know is he cheating or not. If he is, right now he knows he's on the list and will try to avoid abusing. He know, he must to avoid long moves, and he know you track his behavior. His perfomance will be worsen. I have 31 replays of his games (he shares them with everyone on our forum). We can compare his perfomance in future tourney games and in this replays. If you suspend him, you will ruin his reputation and, more important, you will ruin your reputation and your tourney :( And we will neven know the truth and everyone will blame everyone

PS. You should start to collect and share replays from all your tourneys. You need to learn from professional cybersport games like Starcraft

ratprince
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by ratprince » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:43 pm

"professional"

hahaha...

did you not listen to the slitherine dude? Its done. Deal with it. Move on and play.

sn0wball
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by sn0wball » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:44 pm

As far as the upcoming scenario is concerned, I am against Sealion 1940. While the level can be fun, there is a big chance that the Axis player does not get a single unit on English ground, which is definetly not a great experience. We shouldn´t force everyone through this.

WarHomer
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Re: Panzer Corps Tournament 2018

Post by WarHomer » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:58 pm

I´m not very technical and don´t want to reflame this thread, but could someone please explain to me what exactly it is that this guy is doing (or being suspected of doing), just so I know what to be on the lookout for.

Can you really cheat and replay your turn?

I thought that once you started/downloaded your turn, you had to finish and upload it all in one session. Is this not so?

What can I do to spot this behavior? I wholeheartedly agree that If I can´t spot such behavior in my opponents turn, then the threshold for elimination should be very very low.

PS. I´ve had the missing replay thing happen to me a few times, but I just play the turn, as I suspected that this is my own fault somehow. Using Goose´s advise on the subject I haven´t experienced it since.

PPS. I have never suspected any of my opponents of cheating, so if you have played me this isn´t about you :D
Last edited by WarHomer on Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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