Later game core.

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stormbringer3
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Later game core.

Post by stormbringer3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:59 pm

I'm heading into 1943. Looking to the future I'd like some opinions on unit purchases. Right now I'm happy with my infantry, tank and bomber mix. I've currently three +1 movement 88s but no mobile AA units. I've two AT StuGs. I love artillery and have 7 units. I've 5 fighters. After this scenario I'm probably going to sell Recon Rudel. Right now I'm looking to buy between mobile AA, AT, fIghter, or artilery units. Later in the game as the 88 AT side becomes less effective should I change them to 12.8 FlaK units?

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Re: Later game core.

Post by goose_2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:03 pm

stormbringer3 wrote:I'm heading into 1943. Looking to the future I'd like some opinions on unit purchases. Right now I'm happy with my infantry, tank and bomber mix. I've currently three +1 movement 88s but no mobile AA units. I've two AT StuGs. I love artillery and have 7 units. I've 5 fighters. After this scenario I'm probably going to sell Recon Rudel. Right now I'm looking to buy between mobile AA, AT, fIghter, or artilery units. Later in the game as the 88 AT side becomes less effective should I change them to 12.8 FlaK units?
I am at the end of 1943 and still have 3 88's. Just love my +2 Movement 88 and my new +1 Movement 88. Will not change them as having the ability to use them to attack ground or air cannot be beat
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Re: Later game core.

Post by sn0wball » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:24 pm

If you have AA units with a movement bonus, the flexibilty of an 88 beats the higher power of a 128 in my eyes.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:18 pm

I disagree with the prior two posters. If you have an 88 with a movement bonus, that 88 can effectively shoot at anything within 5(!) hexes. It can easily provide cover for an entire army without having to be positioned near the front lines. The 128, unlike the 88, has enough of an attack to score hits on the Sturmovik and level bombers, whereas the 88 is mostly only good for fighters and unarmored tac bombers (of course dealing with the enemy's best fighters is the most important thing for an AA to do, so the 88 is still great). The 128 is particularly good if you over-strength it right to 15- it can often one-shot enemy bombers! But you can't do that with the 88 and still use it in the AT role because it will take damage which will be unaffordable. So basically:

128 Pros:
- Can damaged armored tac bombers and level bombers
- Can be over-strengthed to one-shot anything that flies

128 Cons:
- You give up the increasingly ineffective ground attack (the 128 comes out after the IS-1) that requires you to risk a very valuable support unit on by bringing it to the front lines

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Re: Later game core.

Post by goose_2 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:44 pm

proline wrote:I disagree with the prior two posters. If you have an 88 with a movement bonus, that 88 can effectively shoot at anything within 5(!) hexes. It can easily provide cover for an entire army without having to be positioned near the front lines. The 128, unlike the 88, has enough of an attack to score hits on the Sturmovik and level bombers, whereas the 88 is mostly only good for fighters and unarmored tac bombers (of course dealing with the enemy's best fighters is the most important thing for an AA to do, so the 88 is still great). The 128 is particularly good if you over-strength it right to 15- it can often one-shot enemy bombers! But you can't do that with the 88 and still use it in the AT role because it will take damage which will be unaffordable. So basically:

128 Pros:
- Can damaged armored tac bombers and level bombers
- Can be over-strengthed to one-shot anything that flies

128 Cons:
- You give up the increasingly ineffective ground attack (the 128 comes out after the IS-1) that requires you to risk a very valuable support unit on by bringing it to the front lines
The game standard range for 12.8 is 3, not 4 so not have the effectiveness range unless playing with a mod
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proline
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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:49 am

If the 128 has a move hero as stated in my post, it can reach 5 hexes. 3 for its range, 2 more by moving. That's 91 hexes of coverage. That's enough space to deploy the biggest army you are allowed in any scenario with a lot of room to spare. With a coverage area that big, the 128 will find plenty of things to shoot at. It doesn't need to lower itself to budget AT.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by stormbringer3 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:51 pm

Great discussion about the 12.8. Lots to think about. Any thoughts about the other part of my post concerning which units to buy based on my current core?
Thanks again.

proline
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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:14 pm

5 fighters is enough. You can purchase more AT, Elefant is amazing, or some heavy tanks in 1943. More artillery is always better as well. That said, for future reference you want to be done buying by the end of 1941. As you will have more units than you need at that point, rotate them using different units for different scenarios. That way all your units can get a couple stars of XP early on. You'll find new units are frustratingly ineffective and die too easily from 1943 on, especially infantry. Fresh heavy tanks can be purchased safely until the IS-1 comes out. After that you're pretty much stuck with what you've got.

stormbringer3
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Re: Later game core.

Post by stormbringer3 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:18 pm

Proline thanks for the tip about buying the extra units early and rotating them. I didn't do that.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:27 am

stormbringer3 wrote:Proline thanks for the tip about buying the extra units early and rotating them. I didn't do that.
Yeah remember that there is an experience cap the first few years- once your units hit that cap they apparently aren't learning anything new, so the XP from their kills is wasted. The kills still count towards heroes though.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by stormbringer3 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:53 pm

How many core unit slots do you have at the end of the Grand Campaign?
Thanks.

proline
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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:36 pm

For the East, I usually end 1941 with

18 infantry
8 tanks (4 of which being SE tanks, I disband all SE infantry for money)
9 AT
11 artillery
8 fighters
3 tac bombers
2 level bombers
1 recon
3 AA

These numbers aren't perfect. Likely I could reduce the infantry and fighters slightly while adding another AA and artillery. Nevertheless, the point is that all these units finish 1941 with at least 2 stars of XP. So if a unit dies in the late war, I don't have to deploy a green replacement as my army is bigger than what I need for any particular scenario. The larger than necessary army also means that my force composition doesn't have to be the same each scenario. If there are mountains I can run with mountain infantry, if there's lots of open space I can deploy more armor. If there is a lot of close terrain I can leave my bombers behind and go with artillery. I can bring mortars if there's a lot of close terrain, or heavy guns if there's lots of enemy armor.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by ptje63 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:57 pm

Im in my 4th "Grand Tour of the East", Rommel level first time (but no soft cap), currently at Belgorod March 43:
9inf
9 tanks
3 at
11 art
10 fighters
4 tac bombers
1 level bomber
2 recon
2 AA (both 88mm, no +M hero yet sadly -without it I must admit Im still tempted to exchange for SdKfz for mobility)

Biggest difference # of infantry and AT... all except 5 units have 450+ exp. I use the surplus of units in exactly the same way as Proline does, although the # of AT's are too much for me since they are less versatile/mobile than tanks. As for infantry, I dont think this # can be rotated enough to guarantee enough exp points by 1943 for all. I prefer 9 450+ exp units over double the # with 225 exp points (for example).

The biggest changes/improvements I made during those years of practising:
-less recon (dropped from 5 to 2)
-no SE infantry - with 5 in 1943 I have 4 SE tanks and 1 fighter
-only 1 strat bomber, mostly for naval fights - instead 4 level bombers - more strat bombers = more fighter cover needed
-fighter cover at all times = 9 or 10 fighters minimum: can also be used for strafing targets in final turns when ai has no airforce left

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Re: Later game core.

Post by loganfive » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:01 pm

proline wrote:I disagree with the prior two posters. If you have an 88 with a movement bonus, that 88 can effectively shoot at anything within 5(!) hexes. It can easily provide cover for an entire army without having to be positioned near the front lines. The 128, unlike the 88, has enough of an attack to score hits on the Sturmovik and level bombers, whereas the 88 is mostly only good for fighters and unarmored tac bombers (of course dealing with the enemy's best fighters is the most important thing for an AA to do, so the 88 is still great). The 128 is particularly good if you over-strength it right to 15- it can often one-shot enemy bombers! But you can't do that with the 88 and still use it in the AT role because it will take damage which will be unaffordable. So basically:

128 Pros:
- Can damaged armored tac bombers and level bombers
- Can be over-strengthed to one-shot anything that flies

128 Cons:
- You give up the increasingly ineffective ground attack (the 128 comes out after the IS-1) that requires you to risk a very valuable support unit on by bringing it to the front lines
I tend to prefer the self-propelled SdKfz 7/2. It can move 5 hexes and has a range of 2, meaning it can hit anything within 7 hexes, terrain notwithstanding. And towed AA has the problem of not offering any protection when mounted.

There is also the cost factor: the SdKfz 7/2 is 232 prestige points compared to 368 points for the 128 with transport. By the time the 128 becomes available in 1943 I am generally up against the prestige cap and looking for less expensive units that offer value for the dollar.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by proline » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:39 pm

loganfive wrote:
proline wrote:I disagree with the prior two posters. If you have an 88 with a movement bonus, that 88 can effectively shoot at anything within 5(!) hexes. It can easily provide cover for an entire army without having to be positioned near the front lines. The 128, unlike the 88, has enough of an attack to score hits on the Sturmovik and level bombers, whereas the 88 is mostly only good for fighters and unarmored tac bombers (of course dealing with the enemy's best fighters is the most important thing for an AA to do, so the 88 is still great). The 128 is particularly good if you over-strength it right to 15- it can often one-shot enemy bombers! But you can't do that with the 88 and still use it in the AT role because it will take damage which will be unaffordable. So basically:

128 Pros:
- Can damaged armored tac bombers and level bombers
- Can be over-strengthed to one-shot anything that flies

128 Cons:
- You give up the increasingly ineffective ground attack (the 128 comes out after the IS-1) that requires you to risk a very valuable support unit on by bringing it to the front lines
I tend to prefer the self-propelled SdKfz 7/2. It can move 5 hexes and has a range of 2, meaning it can hit anything within 7 hexes, terrain notwithstanding. And towed AA has the problem of not offering any protection when mounted.

There is also the cost factor: the SdKfz 7/2 is 232 prestige points compared to 368 points for the 128 with transport. By the time the 128 becomes available in 1943 I am generally up against the prestige cap and looking for less expensive units that offer value for the dollar.
That makes a lot of sense in general, but in the specific case of a move hero I'm not sure the SdKfz 7/2 really leverages that. Going from a move of 1 to 2 on the 128 or 88 makes a world of difference- the effective range is hugely expanded and the need to use the vulnerable mount is substantially reduced. Going from a move of 5 to 6 on the SdKfz 7/2 is comparatively meh as it can already cover an army quite well. I'd say the SdKfz 7/2 would be a better candidate for whatever AA happens to get an attack hero as that would bring the SdKfz 7/2's attack closer to the 88 while having the advantages you described so well.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by captainjack » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:28 am

I'd agree with Proline. While move heroes increase the ability to attack enemy aircraft on your turn (which is vey useful), for me the true strength of AA units is in defending units and preventing damage. If you think like this, then 2 move for a 128 or 88 allows it to keep up with infantry while providing defence, which is a much greater benefit than speeding up a unit that can already do this.

Towed AT guns also suffer from having great difficulty engaging the enemy. The extra move on the 88 also helps it get into action when in AT mode, whether attacking or defending.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by huckc » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:05 pm

Over-strengthened mobile AA is a great value since the AI planes always pull the trigger, like us impetuous human players, in attacking the unit that the AA is defending resulting in the over-strength doing more damage to their planes and less to your ground unit being attacked.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by AnalogGamer » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:05 am

A move hero is not what I would look for in S/P AAA. Range first. A 7/2 with a range hero would be much more useful than being able to move one more. I agree that the inexpensive overstrength is a nice bonus. 3 stars and 11 strength is quite nasty.

An 88mm or 128mm benefits greatly from a move hero.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by stormbringer3 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:51 pm

I'm at Kursk in 1943. Other than the Tiger, what should I look at for my non-SE units? I've seen negative comments about the Panther on this front. I farm for heroes so most of my PzIVs have defense +3 heroes. My SE tanks are Tigers.
Thanks for any opinions.

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Re: Later game core.

Post by wargovichr » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:55 am

I like to have at least two Panthers in my core because their higher movement factor (compared to the Tiger) makes for a great mobile fire brigade when faced with some unexpected enemy penetration or flank attack. Perfect for those defensive heroes! Nicely resistant to artillery.

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