Favorite Artillery unit

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ptje63
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by ptje63 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:30 pm

I have arrived at Escape from Stalingrad, nov.1942, on Rommel level, with:

-3x 17cm K18: one M1, one M2 and last A2 heroes. M2 is a blast, able to follow most of my advances with a 3hex move and 4hex reach.
-1x 21cm Mrs 18: A2 hero. Upgraded to 21cm to check differences between 21 and 17cm, which in theory should predict different outcome - but from earlier campagne tries I recall this outcome was disappointing on hard targets after 1942. No move/range hero, 3hex range and low ammo makes it less suitable for attack, more for a siege.
-1x SU-122: captured just 3 scenarios before - good defense, but will await results.
-3x Wurfrahmen: one R1, one A2R1 and last D1R1 heroes. No coincidence all 3 with R hero, specially upgraded earlier arty with R hero to Wurfrahmen :-). Now, Goose-2, I guess these in particular are best to upgrade to a Nebelwerfer, with R hero and zero cost for upgrade. But although the 15 and 21cm version is already available by Nov.1942 I hesitate to upgrade already, since it handicaps my ability to attack. I guess the Nebelwerfer with a R1 + M2 hero would be perfect :-).
-1x sIG 33 II: R1 hero. A 4 hex range moving artillery, less powerful for soft targets but still effective by late 1942.
-1x StuG IIIE: A2D1 heroes - VERY effective between 1936 - 1941 (I start in 1936 with MOD) for bunkers and attack high entrenched infantry, but now becoming vunerable. Has 0 (zero) range, has never (in earlier campaigns) received a R hero, which would be ideal.

JaM2013
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:17 pm

Personally, i feel like the whole artillery concept needs massive rework, because this focus on heavy and long range artillery doesn't really cope with what was actually used during WW2.. medium artillery was a lot more usable than some 17cm long guns (or 155mm long Tom for that matter), yet right now, bigger damage and long range means these guns can easily replace standard artillery in every role.. yet these heavy guns required quite a logistic train to operate them effectively, which made them quite vulnerable to air attack or even enemy counterbattery fires.. yet if you compare their stats to let say 105 howitzers, they have practically same ground defense, so they will withstand enemy fire same way as those lighter guns that didnt required such a huge support base and were a lot easier to operate on battlefield.. maybe 75-105mm howitzers could get 2 movement and slightly increased GD/AD to compensate, while ammo load for those long range guns should be reduced to 4 - after all, their main purpose was counter-battery fire, not to support maneuvering units.. Also, maybe those light/medium batteries could carry a lot more ammunition than heavy artillery.. after all, their base load was typically just 10 rounds, where 105 could have 60-80 rounds of standard load and additional ammo nearby..

ptje63
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by ptje63 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:37 pm

I adhere - admit: many PC units wont balance with WW2 equivalent units and the "hero"- pc-concept will not balance with WW2-equivalents either. I have an M2 Bergtruppen Inf. Unit - which sometimes has more move-hexes available than my tank-units...This game-actual balance will not have ended / found its true balance as off yet Im afraid off...

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:42 pm

yes,heroes tend to disbalance the units, but even base stats are not that well balanced for artillery.. all artillery is moving single hex, ignoring actual weight of those pieces - while 75mm field gun would be easier to re-position with light vehicles, 17cm gun would require heavy prime movers to get it anywhere... if anything, 17cm should have 0 movement to 1 for light arty.. (or even give 75/76guns 2 movement from the start) weight difference was quite significant, where 7.5cm gun could weight around 1100-1500kg,10.5 howitzer about 3.5ton, 17cm gun weight was 17.5ton! (btw 21cm weight was 25tons)

MaxF
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by MaxF » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:10 am

Spaznetz wrote:
goose_2 wrote:
Spaznetz wrote:I never used them much before my most recent start, but I gotta say that I'm loving my 75mm ever since I started using Fallschirmjagers more frequently as 'behind the lines' troublemakers. Pop that bad boy into a plane and give those paras some supporting fire! I haven't gotten it a hero yet, but I'm hoping for movement or range.

I too have never tried this strategy...

Can you do this because you do not give them a truck?
Can you land the 75mm arty anywhere or does it have to be on an airfield?

Can you give me an example of how this is done, or how you implement this in a particular scenario?

Thanks for bringing something new, that is why I love this forum. ;)
I can't take credit for the idea, someone on the forums mentioned it and I tried it out because I'd never been able to get Fallschirmjagers to work without them getting beat up badly.

It should be mentioned that I am editing the scenarios for my own preferences by deleting any Auxiliary units and replacing them with core slots.

1) Yes, no truck for the 75mm as it flies on a Ju 52 like any other air-transportable unit.
2) Airfield landing only. Though you could probably edit the equipment file and make it just like the Fallschirmjagers if you were inclined to do it. Perhaps someone else could advise as to whether there is a historical example?
3) I use 2 units of Fallschirmjagers with a 75mm as a group. Obviously, the setup isn't useful in every situation, but I just finished the France scenario of the Vanilla campaign and it worked well there. Tours, Rennes, & Le Mans are all good targets for this group as they each have an airfield and are a bit out of the way behind the main enemy forces. I took Tours first and then moved though Nantes on the way to Rennes. I had planned to go for Le Mans in a circular path while my main force focused on the north, but changed direction for Avranche and a second direction of attack on the northwest. I land one of the para units on an airfield (or try to :) ) and move the 75mm on top of them. Next turn, shift the paras off the field and land the 75mm. The AI can screw you up if they shift onto the airfield, but that's what the AI is for, right? :wink:

I'm thinking that I will probably use them for Sea Lion and some of the Russian scenarios where a small group can take a lot of under-protected ground away from the main fighting. I might even work up another 75mm since they are cheap, but I'm still wanting my first hero on the first one. Movement would be best, I think, so that it can keep up with the Falls, but a Range hero would be nice as well. Fingers crossed :)

I haven't gotten very far in the Grand Campaign, but I can imagine this tactic to be useful on maps like Minsk '41. I'm sure that having the tool in my toolbox is making me look at maps a bit differently.

Thanks for this hint. I would try a big airborne group with 3 Fallschirm 2 art and 1 AT (which caliber can have a plane?)

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by MaxF » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:59 pm

My beloved one is a towed 10,5 cm I have since Poland '39. 5* and a +1 Range Hero. I gifted her a Sdkfz.

I'm not using rocket artillery anymore, since I prefer more range.
The "range exeption" is the StugIIIB which is probably the top cost/effectiveness unit in game. I had 2 of them, one with a +1 Range which upgraged to Brummbar. Now they're all Brummbar that is still a very cost/effectiveness unit.

As SPGs I use 2x Hummels (yet I would like to give the Wespe a try) and the 2x captured Su-122 which is probably the best SPG in game. (one just died... and I will not redo, since I don't want so many captured things, and someone's gonna die sometimes :/ )

I like also the Highest Caliber 21cm : the job he can do is unparalleled, it's the only one capable of tearing down a -1 to a Heavy Tank --- which sometimes results in a final kill, or the reduction from 2 to 1 so anyone can finish off that annoying IS-1. I have one with a transport, and one without -- for defensive positioning.
( I read that the 17cm is an ineffective mid-way between the 150 and the 210, due the RoF / Caliber)

captainjack
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by captainjack » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:14 pm

The Hummel is quite good but has 80% RoF. The Wespe has 100% RoF and 1 more ammo. It's still useful against infantry even in 1945, so good backup for your SPAT against infantry. The halftracks suffer badly in snow so even with +1 range they aren't much use in 1945 West. Two Wespe and a Hummel make a cheap and useful replacement until the weather improves.

I think you're doing the 170 a disservice, and I'd put the 150 into the category of "not as good as the ones either side". The 150 and 170 both have 80% RoF, but the 170 hits a lot harder than the 150. When the 150 is first available, the 2 or 3 lost shots per turn from the 80% ROF make it worse in some roles than the 105, and the reduced ammo of the 150 doesn't help. Once the 170 is available, the increased hitting power makes quite a big difference over the 150 so it can suppress and kill most things short of an IS or later Churchills and with the same ROF. The 210 gains hitting power over the 170 but drops 1 shot per attack due to lower RoF so the benefits are less than you'd expect, and one less ammo means you need to be more careful picking targets so you don't run out at a critical moment. It's definitely useful, but for much of the game the 170 is more versatile, just as the 105 is more versatile than the 150 in early game.

I still have one 105 in West 45 where the move hero makes it useful for infantry support and at 15 strength and +3 attack it is very good for damaging and suppressing most thing including M3 halftracks, recon and Stuarts.

MaxF
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by MaxF » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:17 am

I read here a thread where were compared the different calibers, I don't remember its title. The 210 performed better than the 170 thus I preferred it.

The Wespe costs only 62 credits more than the towed 105, the Hummer 65 more than the 150, so I would prefer the SPAT over the relative caliber with a transport.
So I have many towed artillery without a transport.
What I don't know is how Initiative is working with Artillery: I imagine it more powerful when reacting in defence of units; or it serves also in your attacking turn? Because I see that SeldPropelled have more initiative ( the Wespe 4, Hummel 5, all the towed ones have 1)

goose_2
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by goose_2 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:53 am

MaxF wrote:I read here a thread where were compared the different calibers, I don't remember its title. The 210 performed better than the 170 thus I preferred it.

The Wespe costs only 62 credits more than the towed 105, the Hummer 65 more than the 150, so I would prefer the SPAT over the relative caliber with a transport.
So I have many towed artillery without a transport.
What I don't know is how Initiative is working with Artillery: I imagine it more powerful when reacting in defence of units; or it serves also in your attacking turn? Because I see that SeldPropelled have more initiative ( the Wespe 4, Hummel 5, all the towed ones have 1)
Don't get your arty caught exposed unless backed up by major arty as a trap for soft units.

I love doing that with StuG3B's as they are extremely resilient even in 1944. and super cheap
SOFT CAP Bonus
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captainjack
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by captainjack » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:43 pm

Higher initiative on artillery is useful if attacked by early infantry or weak armour. Most artillery has very low initiative so gets hit first and then fires, so the suppression doesn't do anything useful. If you have higher initiative, you get to fire first and suppressing the attacker means you take a lot less damage.

Goose2's advice on artillery defence is sound - first choice is to avoid getting caught, next best is to have artillery backup (Stug3s work very well as a team of two), and third option is to have a decent initiative so you fire before the attacker hits you.

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by Buffalohump » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:33 am

Alright Goose,
I may be late to the party but I am here to have fun. I upgraded my Wurfrahman to 30 cm Nebelwerfer at the start of Prohkorovaka and am getting ready to begin Kremenchug. Still no heroes but they are 4 star and sitting at 14 strength and showing very promising results on the defensive. I am considering converting my 2 StuH 42’s as well. Both have range heros and I expect should receive 2nd heros any time now. Any other bits of advise?

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by captainjack » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:50 pm

MaxF wrote: how Initiative is working with Artillery: I imagine it more powerful when reacting in defence of units;
Sorry, I forgot to answer this bit.
After a combat, press control+L, you will see that artillery defensive fire in support of another unit always comes before the attack. This means that artillery initiative only matters when the gun is attacked directly by ground troops.

Similarly, AA defensive fire always comes before the attack, but I think that this is also true for any unit directly attacked from the air. This would mean that initiative also only matters if attacked directly by ground troops.

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by goose_2 » Wed May 02, 2018 3:14 pm

My thoughts on SU-122's:

Pro's:
ROF 100%
good defense
switchable role
extremely long distance gap filler, love being able to move to back up area getting accosted
adequate ammo count
long distance suppressors, 3 range

Con's:
Difficult to get kills, this is actually a significant con as you will be hard pressed to get a 2nd hero, you can just forget about getting a 3rd hero on this artillery as they are earned so late in the game, that even if you are playing on Manstein you will be unable to get enough kills to garner over 1000 kills to acquire 3rd hero.

Final assessment, having them in your late war repertoire is a must as they are great in so many ways, but based on their limited attack, even though I have 3 of them, I only deploy 1 or 2 in my scenario lay out. Holding out hope for a +anything attack hero, as 1st received +1 Movement hero and 2nd earned +1 Range hero, hopefully 3rd can get + something attack, because most of my artillery is sorely lacking in + attack heros.

Thank God for my +3 Att/+1 Movement Nebelwerfer, which has got to be getting close to that 3rd hero.

Thoughts?
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by captainjack » Thu May 03, 2018 4:46 am

Another pro for Su122 - it's fast.
That makes the move hero a disappointment.
+1 range is a bit more useful but still not what you really need - at least you weren't in AT mode at the time as +1 initiative is a big downer for a unit that is supposed to be mainly artillery. Probably beats getting +3A on the last move of the campaign

I'd just missed out on a 3rd hero on my +3A +1R nebelwerfer in 45 West when I ran out of steam on the DV-or-bust route so I'd reckon you'll have a good chance with that on Manstein. I've gone off snow after 45 West!

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by MaxF » Thu May 03, 2018 4:08 pm

I like very much the +1 range artilley because one of my first goals is to destroy enemy AA, so I can kill/suppress them in the distance and finish them with a Me410 or a Stuka. So I'm eventually free to use my air force safely.

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by Pill » Fri May 04, 2018 7:49 pm

goose_2 wrote:I looked at my kills on my 3 30cm Nebelwerfer beasts that I am using in my Manstein playthrough.

3rd best or weakest 30cm has +2 Att/+2 Def Double Heroed and over 1200 kills, still expecting to get 3rd hero that I hope is either +1 Movement or +1 Range.

2nd best 30cm Nebelwerfer +1Range/+1 Movement Double Heroed and over 1400 kills...He used to be a 17cm +1 movement hero and when I received 2nd hero in Sevastopol and it was a +1 Range hero, I was excited to have a +4 range Powerhouse that I could fire at opponents 6 hexes away thanks to the +1 movement, but I found that they were not wracking up the number of kills I was hoping, that all changed as soon as I upgraded to a Nebelwerfer.

#1 bad boy that I would say makes the 2nd hero the best hero, with first being +1 movement, is my +1 Movement +3 Att 30cm Beast with over 1700 kills. (This boy is going to get a 3rd hero anytime now, and I hope it is either a +3 att 2nd hero or +1 Range which will increase its effectiveness even more.

Basically my favorite artillery to use is by far the Nebelwerfer's, they are absolute beasts and easy to decimate any soft target...I am the biggest fan of artillery, and find a healthy mix of various units the best to handle any number of offensive and defensive challenges.

My question is what is other players favorite artillery to use for the Axis, for the Allies, for the Soviets? Best of the game?
Why? What is it about those units that you find make them the best?

I have so many thoughts on this subject but I would like to hear the forum's thoughts first.
StuG III, StuG IV,Brummbar, & SU-122 if captured.
I've played PzCorps from it's inception & the StuG is the only artillery I purchase these days because no other artillery unit can withstand an attack from infantry or armour like the StuG.

Like someone else said StuG's are best deployed in teams of two, not unlike the Panzer Tactics used IRL WWII.

Also the StuG III has higher initiative than most inf units & is a bargain @ 200 prestige. I make sure to stock up on IIIB's when starting a GC playthrough.

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by MaxF » Tue May 08, 2018 9:37 pm

It's not always optimal a couple of StuGs: when attacking both, one may have to go into a forest, then you could suffer a lot of damage, even losing it.
And risking your best hero-units it's not very nice.

JaM2013
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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by JaM2013 » Wed May 16, 2018 12:53 pm

i think artillery could use some improvement as a lot of systems is not modeled properly.. for example British Sexton, not many realize how effective it actually was - it carried 108 rounds on board, therefore it could provide fire support for a lot longer, than German self propelled systems.. 10.5cm Wespe carried just 40 rounds for example.. while American 105mm M7 had 69 rounds.. Maybe amount of ammo should also influence the rate of fire somehow, as artillery system with plenty of ammo would fire a lot more of it during single artillery strike.. if not, then M7 and Sexton should get their surplus ammo.. (so if Wespe has 6 ammo, then M7 should have 10, and Sexton 15...)

And regarding initiative, i think here its important to differentiate between direct firing guns, and indirect ones.. Infantry guns with direct fire should be able to fire first against infantry, because they have range advantage over their weapons..

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by cutydt02 » Wed May 16, 2018 6:55 pm

I got 203mm with double +1 spotting hero and unluck i cant get the 3rd spotting one. So sad, i did have chance to get the worst recon ever. I think better upgrade to su152 :))

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Re: Favorite Artillery unit

Post by goose_2 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 pm

cutydt02 wrote:I got 203mm with double +1 spotting hero and unluck i cant get the 3rd spotting one. So sad, i did have chance to get the worst recon ever. I think better upgrade to su152 :))

That is just sad, I sell my Spotting hero artys
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