P47 v P51

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Korvessa
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P47 v P51

Post by Korvessa » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:35 am

Am playing US Corps 44-45 for the 1st time
Rather surprised the P47 seems to be performing better than the P51
I always thought P51 was better plane.

captainjack
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by captainjack » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:17 am

The P51 was a great plane - long range, good performance and it did a great lob as a long range escort which made a big difference to long range bombing raids.
The P47 was more functional - heavy, ugly but very tough. Probably a better fighter but because it didn't have the range it didn't make such an obvious difference. The P51 also looks nicer so is easier to like. In real life they were both good but had slightly different roles.

Im thh game, I think the P51 suffers a bit because there is no long range escort role and it comes in quite late. For me the P47 is usually a better choice as it's available earlier so you can get some decent experience which more than compensates for any difference in basic stats.

proline
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by proline » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am

The P51 is worthless in game because more fuel just isn't as important as attack and defense. If they had tried to model the drop tanks, say by giving it an extra 300 range until it engaged in combat, they might have had a point in game, but they don't. Real life is another matter.

huckc
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by huckc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:11 pm

The list goes on with poorly modeled US fighter planes in Panzer Corps...

1.) No ground attack variant of the P-47, which was arguably its primary role especially late in the war.
2.) No P-80 shooting star, despite seeing service in World War 2 (unlike many other planes in the game).

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was just a big oversight.

But to answer your question, in the game the P-51 is usable but the P-47 is superior in all roles for most of the war and should generally be purchased when given the chance. The final variant of the Mustang, the P-51H, is roughly on par with the final P-47N however.

JaM2013
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by JaM2013 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:08 pm

i think plane stats are not done that well in panzer corps.. personally, i think initiative, attack and defense could symbolize certain plane characteristics and stats would then better simulate certain plane abilities...

For example Initiative, should represent speed and climb rate/ceiling - any plane with high speed and high climb rate could dictate the engagement, could chose when and how to attack slower planes on lower altitude
Attack should not only cover weapons alone, but should represent overall offensive ability. top speed should also play some role because it allows you to engage targets.
Defense should be mostly about maneuverability of the plane, so any plane that was excellent in maneuverability, would get high air defense.
Ground Defense could represent overall sturdiness of a plane against AAA, and also its operational ceiling - planes that used high altitudes was quite safe from small caliber AAA, while planes optimized for low and medium altitude would be vulnerable to it..

so, with these, P51 would end up having better defense than P47, better ground defense, but weaker offense.It would also have better initiative. On the other side, P-47 would get higher air attack, and of course some bonuses for ground attack.

McGuba
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by McGuba » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:45 pm

JaM2013 wrote:i think plane stats are not done that well in panzer corps.. personally, i think initiative, attack and defense could symbolize certain plane characteristics and stats would then better simulate certain plane abilities...
I absolutely agree with that. The only problem is that the developers never react to such criticism, even if it is well justified. I think it must be a policy so that they do not end up in endless debates as it is truly impossible to come up with an equipment file that would suit every seasoned armchair general's taste, and I understand all that. But still, it is quite disappointing that many of the stats (and not just the air unit stats) are just simply hair raising, and now the chance for an official revision is next to zero. Which has a clearly negative effect on an otherwise truly amazing game that we all like and enjoy.

Luckily though, it is fairly easy to mod many things in the game, including the stats, and everyone can do it with minimal computer skills. And that's what I did as well. For example in the case of the P-47/P-51 I have the following key stats compared to PzC:

PzC v1.30
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 19 AD: 19
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 21 GD: 20 AD: 20

BE mod v1.92
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 25 AD: 21
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 19 GD: 23 AD: 20

As you can see, it fairly corresponds to what you wrote: in my mod the Mustang has better ground defense since it was mostly used for high level bomber escort, while the P-47 was more often used for ground attack and thus more likely to get shot by AAA, even though it is more sturdy. The Mustang has a little better initiative in both cases, which should be ok as it supposed to be more nimble and lighter and slightly faster. On the other hand, the P-47 has slightly better max ceiling, and both has similar climb speed. So the edge here is quite close. Also, the P-47 should have a better air attack due to its heavier armament, but in my mod the difference is not so great as in the official game, due to those other factors that you mentioned as well. As opposed to the official game stats, in my mod the P-51 is the winner when it comes to air defense, mostly due to being more maneuverable, but the difference is not too great as the the P-47 in fact could dive faster as it was much heavier so it could get away and escape from nearly any piston engine fighter if it really wanted.

Of course, these stats can be debated as well, some would say one or the other should get one or more extra point here or there, but I think the general situation is better reflected by these modded stats. In general, both planes were fine, but the main difference what made the P-51 the overall winner was its longer range which made it possible to escort the bombers all the way to Berlin and back. You guys are right that this aspect is not simulated in the official game as most scenarios take place at a smaller map, but in my mod the map is the whole of Europe so this significant difference in range becomes evident too, making the Mustang simply the best Allied fighter. Ah, and I also added a special tactical bomber version of the P-47 to be used after mid 1944, which has much better ground attack stats and all.
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JaM2013
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by JaM2013 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:48 am

another important stat that is quite overlooked in ammo load... most of German fighters actually carried very limited number of rounds for their cannons.. plus, these cannons had low rate of fire, and relatively low muzzle velocity, therefore were not ideal at killing other fighters. (MG FF especially) Later MG151/20 were slightly better in that regard, but still were limited by low number of ammo per gun.

in my equipment file, i gave all such cannon equipped planes just 4 rounds of ammo, while planes like P51 or P47, have 5 or 6, as they had a lot more rounds per gun, and had high rate of fire, good muzzle velocity and large number of guns (6 for P-51, 8 for P-47)

reduced ammo means you really have to be careful with your fighters. You cannot strafe everything you see, but have to plan up front. I'm doing same thing with bombers (ammo 4), which greatly reduces their strength too, plus, it makes interception important, as they waste ammo by firing back at you.. which means they wont have ammo left for multiple bombing runs. (this kinda simulates the attrition fighters caused on bomber squads)

Korvessa
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by Korvessa » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:40 am

McGuba wrote:
JaM2013 wrote: Luckily though, it is fairly easy to mod many things in the game, including the stats, and everyone can do it with minimal computer skills. And that's what I did as well. For example in the case of the P-47/P-51 I have the following key stats compared to PzC:

PzC v1.30
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 19 AD: 19
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 21 GD: 20 AD: 20

BE mod v1.92
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 25 AD: 21
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 19 GD: 23 AD: 20
How does one do that?

captainjack
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by captainjack » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:20 am

That's a good explanation of how you think through the P47-51 balance.

I've been trying out some tweaks here and there - mostly for desert war British tanks, but also Hurribomber variants. It's harder than it looks so I have learned to accept that sometimes it's just a matter of getting the feel about right for the mod and not getting too worried about detail. I suspect a more realsitc mod would need a lot more care.

For example I like giving cannon armed fighters good AA but lower Initiative. This makes them very damaging against bombers in most circumstances, but not as good against specialist fighters. Ammo is usually 4 (and the same for specialist ground attackers with heavy cannon or rockets) so they tend to get used for their main purpose and not just shoot whatever is nearby. I tried 3 ammo which would probably be more accurate and ended up not using them because they spent so much time resupplying.

McGuba
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by McGuba » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:06 am

Korvessa wrote:
McGuba wrote:
JaM2013 wrote: Luckily though, it is fairly easy to mod many things in the game, including the stats, and everyone can do it with minimal computer skills. And that's what I did as well. For example in the case of the P-47/P-51 I have the following key stats compared to PzC:

PzC v1.30
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 19 AD: 19
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 21 GD: 20 AD: 20

BE mod v1.92
P-51D Ini: 12 AA: 18 GD: 25 AD: 21
P-47D Ini: 11 AA: 19 GD: 23 AD: 20
How does one do that?
By editing the equipment.pzdat file in the Data folder of the game directly as it is a simple text file. Before doing so, it is highly recomended to make a backup copy, though. Or maybe by using the equipment editor by Mark:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.as ... =&#2879489
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wargovichr
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by wargovichr » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:43 am

The ongoing problem with the P-51 in U.S. Corps. By the time the model becomes available and you are assigned a special unit the unit has no experience whatsoever and is a priority kill by the AI.
Likewise it's way way too expensive to upgrade your P-47s to P-51s.
So the player is forced to stick with P-47s the whole war which is markedly ahistorical.

sn0wball
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by sn0wball » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:06 am

Regardless of the actual historical comparison, I dislike situations when new units appear, but are inferior in all relevant aspects to existing units. At the very least, this is a waste of a unit slot and a good unit icon. If it is not possible to tweak a new unit into some useful role in the game, then it should be left out or made much cheaper. Even to a non-aviation buff, the Mustang is one of the most recognizable aircrafts of WW2 and should have a role in every core.

Core building is most interesting when you have to make decisions - like finding the right mixture between Panzer IIIs and Panzer IV, or staying with an obsolete unit because of a later upgrade path, as with the Do17, for example. You could do that to the P-51, with the upgrade form B to D or something.

ptje63
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by ptje63 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:05 pm

sn0wball wrote:Core building is most interesting when you have to make decisions - like finding the right mixture between Panzer IIIs and Panzer IV, or staying with an obsolete unit because of a later upgrade path, as with the Do17, for example. You could do that to the P-51, with the upgrade form B to D or something.
Upgrading in PC has not been done throughout for all aircraft - one can upgrade the Me.109 and 110 to various variants, but has to stick with the Fw.190A for years whereas it has seen numerous upgrades.

JaM2013
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Re: P47 v P51

Post by JaM2013 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:51 pm

thing is, those were not really upgrades but new planes.. FW190 had plethora of improvements over its life span. but only few significant. but of course, they are missing in base Panzer Corps.. FW190 should start with A-1, then get A-4 and A-8 as top version. (F-3 was practically variant of A-4 with additional bomb racks)

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