Amassing Prestige

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AEWHistory
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Amassing Prestige

Post by AEWHistory » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 am

Okay, I’m not a PG, AG, or PC newbie, but I am flummoxed by something I have been reading on the forums. I’ve been seeing people talk about having accumulated 20k, 30k, and even 40k in prestige! Holy Gaucamole, how does anyone accomplish this? I’m not the most careful player, admittedly, but I’ve never had more than 5-6k and that was early on.

Now maybe it is my style of play.... I have built a sizable group of core units so I can customize my army when it meets different challenges. I also find this useful as a hedge against running low on prestige, since I know I’ve got some extra unit I can continue with. Finally, it is also useful having options to bring different units in should I lose a core unit mid-scenario. So right now I am in 1942. I need to deploy 32 units, but I have about 45-50 units in total.

Additionally, I like to give my units their full capable strength up to 13 (any higher is horribly expensive). I suspect this might be my Achilles heel, but it helps a lot to start a scenario with the ability to lay waste to many opponents.

Anyway, I don’t know what else to provide at the moment, but I’m curious how peeps are managing to accumulate 10s of thousand prestige. My only other thought is that isn’t so much what they have accumulated and is available to spend but how much prestige they’ve gained throughout the game (including gained and spent). That makes more sense to me, but does the game track this? If it does I don’t know where.....

Help people! And many thanks in advance....

TSPC37730
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by TSPC37730 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:43 am

AEWHistory wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 am
Additionally, I like to give my units their full capable strength up to 13 (any higher is horribly expensive). I suspect this might be my Achilles heel, but it helps a lot to start a scenario with the ability to lay waste to many opponents.
I really think this is the core of your problem (please forgive the horrible pun). Here's a quick idea the next time you're in between scenarios. When you are bringing your units up to strength, get them all to 10, but, no more. Then note your remaining prestige amount. Then go ahead and bring your units up to 13 or whatever strength you normally would. Then, again note your prestige number. I imagine there will be a huge difference, and by doing this, you will get some perspective. If the shock of the amount you've burned up makes you reconsider your ways, then you can select "Restart Scenario" from the game menu.

I try to avoid overstrength, except for units which are not likely to take damage. These typically include strategic bombers, artillery & AA. Other than that, I almost never use it. I might give a point or two to a unit when it isn't too expensive, such as an infantry without transport or recon. But, that's about it. I know it's nice to have that extra punch but just remember that your most expensive strength point is the first one lost - even if it's from a garbage attack like a distant bombardment or a fighter strafe. Good luck!

PeteMitchell
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by PeteMitchell » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:50 pm

AEWHistory wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 am
My only other thought is that isn’t so much what they have accumulated and is available to spend but how much prestige they’ve gained throughout the game (including gained and spent). That makes more sense to me, but does the game track this? If it does I don’t know where.....
No, it's the net disposable amount of prestige still available to be spent at that moment. The game does not track the total amount of gained (incl. already spent) prestige.

Other than that, maybe avoid overstrength and in-game (elite) replacements and avoid/limit losses as much as possible (e.g. by suppressing enemy units with artillery before attacking and backing up your own units with artillery when defending).
Comprehensive Battlefield Europe AAR:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=86481

ycloon
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by ycloon » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:40 pm

Another tip is to plan your equipment upgrades carefully. Specifically, avoid out-of-family upgrades for as long as you can. E.g., if you bought a Pz IIIE, try to upgrade it within the Pz III family.

If you are playing the GC, check out the capturable equipment thread and make sure you capture the equipment that is available in specific scenarios (e.g., 10.5 artillery in GC39 - Warsaw North/South, French tanks in various GC40 scenarios). These captured equipment are free and you can either use them (at 0 purchase cost) or sell them for prestige.

turn4441
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by turn4441 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:15 pm

Don't forget the prestige gained by causing surrenders and especially of high-strength, high-value units.

AEWHistory
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by AEWHistory » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:50 pm

turn4441 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:15 pm
Don't forget the prestige gained by causing surrenders and especially of high-strength, high-value units.
I only realized that you get points for surrenders last night! I feel so stupid.... It has been so many years since I had played PG and AG,but I can’t recall if those games had this function, but it didn’t occur to me to look. So I’ve been pushing to get towns and air strips, sometimes without doing a good cost/benefit analysis of these actions.

I have definitely started to realize I tend to play PC rather lazily. After all, why fight for a town to get 50 prestige if it costs 200!
ycloon wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:40 pm
Another tip is to plan your equipment upgrades carefully. Specifically, avoid out-of-family upgrades for as long as you can. E.g., if you bought a Pz IIIE, try to upgrade it within the Pz III family.

If you are playing the GC, check out the capturable equipment thread and make sure you capture the equipment that is available in specific scenarios (e.g., 10.5 artillery in GC39 - Warsaw North/South, French tanks in various GC40 scenarios). These captured equipment are free and you can either use them (at 0 purchase cost) or sell them for prestige.
Thanks for the input. For the most part I have been doing this, but it is good to know I am doing something right. :) At this point I have just started selling some of my accumulated units to make up for my prestige shortages, but there are a couple captured units that have since grown I experience and one that I went ahead and converted from a Somua S35 to a PzIVF. Still, this is an oddity. Mostly I try to be economical in upgrades; not too much, not too little.
TSPC37730 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:43 am
AEWHistory wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 am
Additionally, I like to give my units their full capable strength up to 13 (any higher is horribly expensive). I suspect this might be my Achilles heel, but it helps a lot to start a scenario with the ability to lay waste to many opponents.
I really think this is the core of your problem (please forgive the horrible pun). Here's a quick idea the next time you're in between scenarios. When you are bringing your units up to strength, get them all to 10, but, no more. Then note your remaining prestige amount. Then go ahead and bring your units up to 13 or whatever strength you normally would. Then, again note your prestige number. I imagine there will be a huge difference, and by doing this, you will get some perspective. If the shock of the amount you've burned up makes you reconsider your ways, then you can select "Restart Scenario" from the game menu.

I try to avoid overstrength, except for units which are not likely to take damage. These typically include strategic bombers, artillery & AA. Other than that, I almost never use it. I might give a point or two to a unit when it isn't too expensive, such as an infantry without transport or recon. But, that's about it. I know it's nice to have that extra punch but just remember that your most expensive strength point is the first one lost - even if it's from a garbage attack like a distant bombardment or a fighter strafe. Good luck!

I will do this. As I have mentioned, I have long tended to play this game, and it’s predecessors with a sort of lazy, beer’n’pretzels style, but I’m trying to be more thoughtful now.

Btw, is there a chart somewhere that tells the costs of reinforcements? I suppose I could work all this out on my own, but it would be so much less time consuming if I knew how much each of these points were from 11, to 12, to 13,etc.

As an aside, I recently began to think about the very point you were making—that the most expensive point is the first one lost. It is an awful way to start a scenario when I lose some of my extra strength points to garbage attacks or in defense, so I can definitely see how this may be what is really holding me back.

Even with all this..... 40,000 prestige!? Damn. It isn’t that I don’t believe the peeps posting this, but maybe I just suck at PC. :?

turn4441
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by turn4441 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:31 pm

A couple of other general tips:

1. If you are going to upgrade a unit, bring it up to full strength before upgrading as replacements are typically cheaper for the older unit. If you are going to overstrength the unit, also do that prior to upgrading if the new unit is in family. If out of family, don't overstrength first as those strength points will be lost and a waste of prestige.
2. If you are playing a scenario that gives prestige per turn, save the last victory hex/opponent's unit to take on the last possible turn even if you don't do anything for several turns to earn the prestige. It's gamey, but if you have prestige issues, it helps.
3. Don't forget the effect of transport on prestige costs for replacements (see quick example table below). The table is a quick attempt to show this using a basic '39 Wehrmacht unit with no transport, a truck, and a halftrack. The left column is unit strength before replacements (8,6, and 4). The next column shows cost for elite replacements during deployment while the 3rd shows the cost of elite replacements during a scenario. Note the effect of the different transports and also that replacements are twice as much during the game. On the right is the cost of overstrength. The increment cost is how much each next 1 overstrength costs in addition to the previous one. So it costs 12 to go from 10 to 11, then 19 more to go from 11 to 12. The next line shows the total cost to go to a certain overstrength from 10 strength. For example, it would cost 56 to raise a non-transported Wehrmacht from 10 to 13. Note that the first amount (12) is equal to 2 elite strength points, the next (19) equals 3, and the last increment (38) is equal to 6 (the same as going from 4 to 10 strength). So if you raise a unit from 10 to 15, you have raised the unit strength by 5 for the cost of 20 non-overstrength elite replacements. No doubt, that strong a unit has benefits, but it is terribly expensive.
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by goose_2 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:38 pm

What difficulty level are you playing at?

I was able to amass a lot more than just 40k on the Grand Campaign, are you talking about the Grand Campaign, or the Vanilla Campaign?
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turn4441
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by turn4441 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:20 pm

The large prestige amounts people talk about do seem impossible for many newcomers. However, It usually comes down to some simple methods, many of which have already been mentioned. Typically, a few minor tweaks to your play, reinforcement strategy, and upgrade strategy will yield large results. A few more ideas:

1. Play on a more difficult level, or at least use AI Level 2, even if you change nothing else. The AI is more aggressive but this often makes it easier as you can draw an infantry (or other problem) unit with high entrenchment (even at level eight) out of a city hex easily by putting a truck 2 hexes away (best to use aux units and don't forget artillery back up). On Colonel level, they won't leave and you'll spend forever having to reduce the entrenchment before attacking.
2. Be patient. Other than the vanilla campaign, most scenarios give ample time and you get nothing for finishing early. Use the available turns, again, especially if there is a per turn prestige amount given.
3. Minimize losses. Suppress before attacking so they are unable to shoot back or at least minimally, lure the enemy into ambushes, fighter traps, artillery traps, etc.
4. Use the proper unit in the proper terrain and against the proper enemy unit. Remember, it is the terrain of the defender that counts in combat.
5. Don't attack against poor odds or where you are likely to have many losses where at all possible.
6. Try to avoid in-game replacements. Take a badly damaged unit off the line unless absolutely necessary. If you do need replacements move the unit away from the line first if possible. Replacements come suppressed so you often lose them right away. However, they may be enough for the unit to survive at times.
7. Watch some youtube videos by Braccada, Deducter sc, or others, especially the first few in a playlist where they give many general great game play tips, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcNtqo ... 5EN0KpAlLP such as using fighter traps, artillery traps, and the use of surround, suppress, surrender where possible.
Last edited by turn4441 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TSPC37730
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by TSPC37730 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:33 pm

AEWHistory wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:50 pm

I will do this. As I have mentioned, I have long tended to play this game, and it’s predecessors with a sort of lazy, beer’n’pretzels style, but I’m trying to be more thoughtful now.
I did too - at first.

Whether by accident or by design, the game suckers you in during the early years. Much like the actual war I suppose. During my first play throughs, I was able to do well until late '42 - the Stalingrad scenarios fittingly enough. I bumbled through them, faced more of a struggle in '43, and thereafter pretty much was done at some point in '44. But, when you play with the beer & pretzels style that you mentioned, you don't give it much thought in '39-'42 or so because you keep winning. But, you need to. You have to keep banking prestige for the late years. Your tanks and planes will get progressively more expensive, and, your opponents will also be stronger and also of better quality. Oh yeah, and there will be a sh*tload of them too. Without a prestige bank well into the 5 figure range, the game will eventually become unplayable at some point. One of the things that makes this game a challenge is that you have to think of the scenario in front of you, but, you also have to think of the long term big picture as well.

huckc
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by huckc » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:27 pm

To get a sense of what's possible here's how much profit I garnered on a per campaign basis up until '44. I then peaked at 174k prestige in '45 which is more than I can ever spend.
Image

I break it down further here but it might be too spoilery as it goes into individual scenarios:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 60#p765483

Some advice:
1) Keep at 100% soft cap until '44 (unless you're playing on Manstein)
2) Capture all equipment then disband them unless they're stronger than what you have available or picked up enough experience. If they come with over-strength don't let them get damaged during battle as you'll get more prestige when disbanding it.
3) Bridgeheads are money-making machines via surrender income and taking less damage. Plenty of time to sit back there in most scenarios.
4) SE units don't count towards the soft cap so you want them as tanks

faos333
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Re: Amassing Prestige

Post by faos333 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:32 pm

Not sure if this has been mentioned already, see the campaign path of scenarios, use some scenarios for farming prestige and experience and delay finishing them, no all scenario deserve a Decisive victory.

In my case -Grand Campaign- I managed 21.000 prestige after Moscow 43, which helped a lot during US scenarios.

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