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Range.

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:51 pm
by stormbringer3
When I have an artillery with a +1 range I hope for an A+3 as my second hero. If a second R+1 appears is that worthwhile or too much of a good thing?
Thanks for any opinions.

Re: Range.

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:39 pm
by captainjack
I've had 2 range heroes. They are very good for counter-battery and for suppressing AA,, also for forcing surrender of soft or lightly armoured units. While it's tempting to go for a big gun, these roles suit lighter guns with decent Rate of Fire since you want a lot of suppression rather than a few kills (and the higher ammo count means more shooting and less reloading). You also have some other interesting options like converting to a 3 range Stug3, 4 range 75mm or nebelwerfer etc.
The 3A plus range is probably better than 2R but you can have some fun with 2R.

Re: Range.

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:54 pm
by RVallant
2R artillery heroes can probably go behind your ground AA units and bombard over them, your 'front' artillery and then beyond the defensive unit. That can mean you can use them to fire when you need to reload the frontline artillery etc and you don't have any risk from air attack either.

On the attack they'll allow you to get an earlier shot off some days if they're self-propelled. :)

Re: Range.

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:47 am
by captainjack
I hadn't considered very long range SPArt (other than Stugs) due to the lower ammo on most SP units but a fast 5 range sp gun would make a very large part of the battlefield risky, at least for soft targets. There's always something new to learn.

Re: Range.

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:31 am
by hugh2711
Much to my surprise I once had TWO +2 range heroes on 2 wurfrahmens. It was really bizarre. I do think the heroes come in batches in games, not so random. I have also had occassionally +2 range heroes on towed 17" or sig 38's. I tend to run with 4 towed and 4 mobile arty in GC

Re: Range.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm
by MaxF
I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)

Re: Range.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:47 pm
by goose_2
MaxF wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm
I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
+1 Range Niebelwerfer's or Wurfrahmen's are both great useful artillery for shredding soft and suppressing hard units. Enjoy

Re: Range.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:26 pm
by heinzrondorf
MaxF wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm
I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
Personally I like to convert the first artillery units which receive +1R heroes into StuG IIIB as they then become a useful offensive unit. I just played through the Stalingrad scenarios with StuG III/StuH 42s with range heroes and they were awesome in that environment. That said, I can certainly understand why you would like to convert into a Nebelwerfer or Wurfrahmen though. It's also a good choice.

Re: Range.

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm
by goose_2
heinzrondorf wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:26 pm
MaxF wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:01 pm
I just got my first +1R hero and have it on a towed 15cm.
I'm very tempted to have it on a Niebelwerfer 15cm! when it will become available.
Also tempted to have it on a StugIII, but that's ok also without range, until the soviets get too powerful tanks (best thing is to have 2 StugIII together so they help each others).

Range is also useful on a Flak88, which makes it a 5 hexes range including the 1 movement, practically a 11 hexes wide!
But you can get the same range with +1movement.
In my last full GC East, I had 1 Flak88 + 1 15cm, both with +1 movement (without transport)
Personally I like to convert the first artillery units which receive +1R heroes into StuG IIIB as they then become a useful offensive unit. I just played through the Stalingrad scenarios with StuG III/StuH 42s with range heroes and they were awesome in that environment. That said, I can certainly understand why you would like to convert into a Nebelwerfer or Wurfrahmen though. It's also a good choice.
The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.

Re: Range.

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm
by MaxF
goose_2 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm

The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?

Re: Range.

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:51 pm
by dalfrede
MaxF wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm
How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?
Heroes come from kills, Manstein has AI with +5 strength units.
So yes, with 50% more strength points to kill, you get more kills, more kills more heroes.

Re: Range.

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:35 pm
by MaxF
dalfrede wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:51 pm
MaxF wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:48 pm
How do you get so many heroes, is it because of Manstein difficulty level?
Heroes come from kills, Manstein has AI with +5 strength units.
So yes, with 50% more strength points to kill, you get more kills, more kills more heroes.
Thank you. I guessed some Manstein bonus. I'm already letting the AI to reform its units in battle to 'farm' them, sometimes.
I will increase the enemy strenght then. (That means, in my current game, from the end of 1940 GC.)

Re: Range.

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:56 am
by captainjack
Stug 3 with a range hero is very handy. A 3 range nebelwerfer is probably even better once the 21cm is available, although a 3 range 75 (or a 25 pounder) with loads of ammo and 110% RoF is good against soft targets and worth a try.

For me a range hero on AA is better on a 7/1 AA than on an 88 (or allied equivalent) as you have enough mobility to provide defensive cover for mobile groups (which the 88 isn't good for) and attack enemy air over a decent area.

Re: Range.

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:13 pm
by heinzrondorf
goose_2 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm
The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
You are right when it comes to accumulating heroes :) ,Wurfrahmen and Nebelwerfer really gets a lot of kills.
However,I almost immediately upgrade the units after I receive the 1st hero so that the 1st hero negate that unit's weaknesses. This means for artillery:

Range hero -> StuG/StuH42/Brummbär
Move hero -> Nebelwerfer or Towed Artillery
Defensive hero -> Wurfrahmen/Panzerwerfer
Attack hero -> SPA such as Sturmpanzer/Sig38 etc

I have found that this gives me a very well balanced artillery core that suits my playing style and one where I can choose what types of artillery to bring into a certain type of scenario depending on the map and enemy. Granted I play on General at the moment so I have a lot of prestige to spare so I can understand this strategy might be more difficult to implement on Rommel or similar where prestige is tight.

Re: Range.

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:29 pm
by goose_2
heinzrondorf wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:13 pm
goose_2 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:43 pm
The interesting thing about my Manstein playthrough is that I was able to get a ton of heroes for multiple units, over 100 by the start of 45. Because of this, I have experimented a lot with various units. Nebelwerfer's by a great deal are the most effective weapon at getting a 3rd hero. I have two with 3 heroes, and one poised to get a 3rd in Berlin. My StuG3B Range hero did not get awarded a 2nd hero until late 45 so the chance of getting effective heroes with your Range StuG's is almost nonexistent. Wurfrahmen's received their 2nd hero rather quickly and are poised to receive 3 heroes in Berlin. Probably.

So I think StuG3B are great, I use them in almost every scenario for their cheap effective defensive posture. But they do not acquire heroes quickly at all.
You are right when it comes to accumulating heroes :) ,Wurfrahmen and Nebelwerfer really gets a lot of kills.
However,I almost immediately upgrade the units after I receive the 1st hero so that the 1st hero negate that unit's weaknesses. This means for artillery:

Range hero -> StuG/StuH42/Brummbär
Move hero -> Nebelwerfer or Towed Artillery
Defensive hero -> Wurfrahmen/Panzerwerfer
Attack hero -> SPA such as Sturmpanzer/Sig38 etc

I have found that this gives me a very well balanced artillery core that suits my playing style and one where I can choose what types of artillery to bring into a certain type of scenario depending on the map and enemy. Granted I play on General at the moment so I have a lot of prestige to spare so I can understand this strategy might be more difficult to implement on Rommel or similar where prestige is tight.
Interesting, my playstyle is the exact opposite. I use heroes to dictate which unit they will be in, but instead of making it to counter their weaknesses I do it to enhance their strengths. Because I want to maximize their effectiveness.

Def heroes become StuG3B's.
Range heroes become anything towed, or Wurfrahmen.
Attack heroes become 17cm or Nebelwerfers.
Move are anything towed.

So some are similar.

Re: Range.

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:47 pm
by braccada
The more I play the less use I see in range heroes. It sure feels nice, but it is super rare that it changes a tactical situation, because I hardly find myself out of targets for my artillery. Attack heroes on the other hand are useful every single shot. Def for Stugs is nice, too, because it keeps them alive.

Re: Range.

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:30 pm
by George_Parr
Well, a range 4 artillery is really nice to take down enemy artillery that covers a defensive line. You can happily blast it away - or any AA nearby - without being in danger yourself. This is especially helpful when running into a defended river-line.

You might almost always have something to shoot at with your artillery anyway, but at the same time there are situations where such an artillery is the only thing that can savely deal with well-defended lines. Otherwise you either need to brute-force your way through bad odds, face counter-attacks on a terrain you don't want to face them on, or go into an artillery-duel in which the enemy can shoot back. All of which will often lead to heavy casualties. The only other option would be air support, which might not always fare all that well either if AA is nearby.

Re: Range.

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:48 am
by braccada
I agree, sometimes it is very nice to have it. The question is how often does it really change the outcome in terms of damage taken or critical speed? 1 out of a 100 turns? I do not have a good estimate, however I am pretty sure an attack hero will prevent more damage over the course of the game. Just to be clear, a range hero is still one of the best! Initially I thought it is the best. Now I would rank them like:

- movement
- attack
- range
- defense
- initiative / spotting

Re: Range.

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:29 pm
by MaxF
I still find the +1 range on a towed ( 15cm) the best option.
Since in many maps or situations you can't set all your artillery at a range 3 distance, so the one 1 hexe behind can open fire as well, maximizing firepower.

Re: Range.

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:36 pm
by JagdpanzerIV
The Brummbar is full of ammo, with +1 or +2 range it's very useful AND well armoured.