Ending the war with USSR

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marklv
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Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:30 pm

Just what the heck do you have to do to defeat - or even open negotiations - with USSR when you are playing as Germany? By middle 1942 I destroyed 11 million Russian soldiers and they still attack!!

Is this a joke or what?

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Post by gwgardner » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:46 pm

Take all the VP cities in the Soviet Union.

The Russians had many more than 11 million casualties in the War. Remember those don't necessarily mean killed.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by brettz123 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:33 pm

marklv wrote:Just what the heck do you have to do to defeat - or even open negotiations - with USSR when you are playing as Germany? By middle 1942 I destroyed 11 million Russian soldiers and they still attack!!

Is this a joke or what?
Look at it this way..... at least now you know how the Germans felt. I guess the game really does a pretty good job of simulating the Eastern Front :D

marklv
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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:24 am

April 1943 and I have killed or captured 22 million (!) Red Army soldiers. Every city captured other than Magnitogorsk and a couple others - still no Soviet surrender! :twisted:

This is simply ridiculous - there is now way that this is realistic.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by Razz1 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:36 am

Have you captured all the victory points?

The number you see is only for flavor and is not a true number losses.

It could say 60 million, but it doesn't change the game.

It's relative data.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by doomtrader » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:48 am

marklv wrote:April 1943 and I have killed or captured 22 million (!) Red Army soldiers. Every city captured other than Magnitogorsk and a couple others - still no Soviet surrender! :twisted:

This is simply ridiculous - there is now way that this is realistic.

Soviets will never surrender and they did not do it in history so it s rather hard to say is it realistic or not.
The game ends when only one alliance is left so you have to capture every VP city to win with soviets.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by gwgardner » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:27 pm

marklv wrote:April 1943 and I have killed or captured 22 million (!) Red Army soldiers. Every city captured other than Magnitogorsk and a couple others - still no Soviet surrender! :twisted:

This is simply ridiculous - there is now way that this is realistic.

Look at Magnitagorsk. Click on it, and read the hex info. Is it a victory point city?

The map doesn't extend to the Urals. There was a whole lot of Soviet territory and a whole lot of available resources and people left to continue the war.

marklv
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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:45 am

doomtrader wrote:
marklv wrote:April 1943 and I have killed or captured 22 million (!) Red Army soldiers. Every city captured other than Magnitogorsk and a couple others - still no Soviet surrender! :twisted:

This is simply ridiculous - there is now way that this is realistic.

Soviets will never surrender and they did not do it in history so it s rather hard to say is it realistic or not.
The game ends when only one alliance is left so you have to capture every VP city to win with soviets.

Sorry - this is absurd. With Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Saratov, Sverdlovsk, the Caucasus and the Urals all in German hands there would have been no way for the Soviets to carry on fighting.

marklv
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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:48 am

gwgardner wrote:
marklv wrote:April 1943 and I have killed or captured 22 million (!) Red Army soldiers. Every city captured other than Magnitogorsk and a couple others - still no Soviet surrender! :twisted:

This is simply ridiculous - there is now way that this is realistic.

Look at Magnitagorsk. Click on it, and read the hex info. Is it a victory point city?

The map doesn't extend to the Urals. There was a whole lot of Soviet territory and a whole lot of available resources and people left to continue the war.
What load of territory? East of the Urals there was Siberia, Mongolia and Turkestan - a relatively small population and scant resources.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by Razz1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:16 am

You forget all the production moved East.
There is lend lease.

The Russians are afraid of the Germans and would rather die than surrender.

Would the USA ever surrender if it was invaded? No!

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by gwgardner » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:17 am

As the scenario currently stands, take all the victory point cities.

As you consider that victory condition unrealistic, it's definitely possible to easily mod the game, and reduce the number of victory point cities (I think).

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by doomtrader » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:23 am

gwgardner wrote:As the scenario currently stands, take all the victory point cities.

As you consider that victory condition unrealistic, it's definitely possible to easily mod the game, and reduce the number of victory point cities (I think).

Indeed, this is right.
You can easily mod your save game.

marklv
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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:58 pm

Razz1 wrote:You forget all the production moved East.
There is lend lease.

The Russians are afraid of the Germans and would rather die than surrender.

Would the USA ever surrender if it was invaded? No!
Garbage - any country will surrender eventually, rather than face genocide, even the Japanese did.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by doomtrader » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:29 pm

marklv wrote:
Razz1 wrote:You forget all the production moved East.
There is lend lease.

The Russians are afraid of the Germans and would rather die than surrender.

Would the USA ever surrender if it was invaded? No!
Garbage - any country will surrender eventually, rather than face genocide, even the Japanese did.

Excuse me marklv, but actually Poland did not surrendered during the World War 2.

Actually there is a chance that the Soviet AI will ask for peace. I don't want to spoil it for others, so if you really wish to know, please send me a PM.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:34 pm

Yes, Poland did not surrender, but it was completely occupied. And if it had surrendered and been more cooperative with the Germans, in the way that France did, it would have recieved better treatment. I'm not making a political point here, but the refusal to surrender will ultimately lead to a genocidal policy on the part of the winning power - the same would have happened if Germany had not surrendered in May 1945: the allies would simply have cut off all food supplies to civlians and left them to starve to death. Therefore, yes, you can argue that the Russians may never have surrendered, but the Red Army would - at some point - have been destroyed. And then only partisans could have carried on the struggle, leaving the Germans to carry out Hitler's order of 100 civilians executed for every Germans soldier killed by a partisan. Every nation has its breaking point - bravery is not the issue here, survival is.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by doomtrader » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:07 pm

So in other words, the surrender of USSR happens when you are reaching the eastern edge of the map.
Remember that there is still millions of square kilometers

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by Rasputitsa » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:06 pm

marklv wrote:Yes, Poland did not surrender, but it was completely occupied. And if it had surrendered and been more cooperative with the Germans, in the way that France did, it would have recieved better treatment. I'm not making a political point here, but the refusal to surrender will ultimately lead to a genocidal policy on the part of the winning power - the same would have happened if Germany had not surrendered in May 1945: the allies would simply have cut off all food supplies to civlians and left them to starve to death. Therefore, yes, you can argue that the Russians may never have surrendered, but the Red Army would - at some point - have been destroyed. And then only partisans could have carried on the struggle, leaving the Germans to carry out Hitler's order of 100 civilians executed for every Germans soldier killed by a partisan. Every nation has its breaking point - bravery is not the issue here, survival is.
If the German government had not surrendered the Allies would have continued to advance, until they had occupied the whole of the country. They would have then continued with the policy of instituting a multi-power military government to administer the country, as actually happened at the time. Much of Germany was already facing starvation, due to the collapse of the transport system and the organisation of the regime.

The war would have ended when Germany was fully occupied and remains of the Nazi regime removed, although desirable to save casualties, surrender was not essential, as complete military defeat was inevitable.

I doubt that co-operation with the Germans was an option on offer to either the Poles, or the Russians, Hitler was only interested in total victory and the absorption of much of Poland as Reich territory.

Hitler was not necessarily expecting, or requiring a Soviet surrender, he was planning to advance far enough East to bring the Ural industrial areas within bombing range, then take a defensive position to guard his new Eastern empire, the frontier defence would maintain the martial health of the nation.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:31 pm

doomtrader wrote:So in other words, the surrender of USSR happens when you are reaching the eastern edge of the map.
Remember that there is still millions of square kilometers
For all practical purposes the war with the USSR should end when the last areas of industrial importance in the Urals are captured. Without these, the main cities and the Caucasus, there is no way that the USSR could continue the war other than by guerilla or partisan warfare.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by marklv » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:35 pm

Rasputitsa wrote:
marklv wrote: I doubt that co-operation with the Germans was an option on offer to either the Poles, or the Russians, Hitler was only interested in total victory and the absorption of much of Poland as Reich territory.

Hitler was not necessarily expecting, or requiring a Soviet surrender, he was planning to advance far enough East to bring the Ural industrial areas within bombing range, then take a defensive position to guard his new Eastern empire, the frontier defence would maintain the martial health of the nation.
Despite the loony racial views of the Nazis it was becoming obvious by 1943 that there had to be some measure of autonomy given to the states of the USSR, including Russia, if there was ever going to be a possibility for Germany to build any kind of productive 'empire' in this part of the world. This is why the Vlasov army was formed and Cossack regiments started to be created as part of the Wehrmacht. Even Himmler realised this quite early on.

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Re: Ending the war with USSR

Post by Razz1 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:07 pm

And this is why we have the Option to Create Croatia and Ukraine

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