Air unit speed

Open beta forum.

Moderators: Slitherine Core, The Lordz, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7172
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Air unit speed

Post by Kerensky » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:53 am

Explain this to me, maybe I'm missing something:

I never understood why air speed isn't better represented in Panzer Corps, and Panzer General games in general.

I-16 moves 13
109 13, 14, 14 14,
190A and D 14 14
TA fighter, 14
me163 14
Me262 14

Is there a reason for this, what's wrong with a more accurate formula say... top MPH divided by 30 = movement.
Me 262 was 559 MPH so it moves speed 18.
Bf 109G was 398 MPH so it moves speed 13.
And so on and so forth.

Razz1
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:49 am
Location: USA

Post by Razz1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:44 am

Movement must consider fuel. Think of each turn representing hours. Sure you can move fast but you only have so much fuel.

I believe speed is part of combat/initiative calculation.

Obsolete
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1203
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 5:25 pm

Post by Obsolete » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:56 am

Well now, I refuse to get into any more scientific discussion unless we switch to metric first!
Image
Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7172
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:16 am

Razz1 wrote:Movement must consider fuel. Think of each turn representing hours. Sure you can move fast but you only have so much fuel.

I believe speed is part of combat/initiative calculation.
Fuel is already separate and properly represented, although I sort of understand the initiative point.

OmegaMan1
Captain - Bf 110D
Captain - Bf 110D
Posts: 892
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:42 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Post by OmegaMan1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:10 am

I always thought People's General handled air units in a logical, believable manner. Air units were not represented as actual units on the playing field, but rather as assets that could be called in to perform various tasks (interdiction, bombardment, recon, etc.). Air "points" determined how many missions could be performed in a turn (for example, simple recon flights cost 1 point, whereas heavy bombing runs could cost 5 points). Maybe something to consider in the future?

AgentX
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Re: Air unit speed

Post by AgentX » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:03 am

Kerensky wrote: Is there a reason for this, what's wrong with a more accurate formula say... top MPH divided by 30 = movement.
Me 262 was 559 MPH so it moves speed 18.
Bf 109G was 398 MPH so it moves speed 13.
And so on and so forth.
Would this formula affect other air units as well? Strategic and tactical bombers would see a drop in their range. Top speed of a Ju188 is like 300mph, so that would only allow 10 hex movement. A Ju87 Stuka is even worse with a top speed of around 240mph; that only leaves 8 movement. You could use a different formula for strategic and tactical bombers. Say you use 22 for the division number, so the Ju87 stays at it's current 11 range, then that will make the Ju188 have a range of 13 (up from it's current 12).

As far as the Me262 goes, 18 is way too much movement for it, especially when looking at it's very limited range of only 650 miles. Sure, it could go 559mph, but after just over an hour, it would have to land. Currently, it has 65 fuel, so the combination of 18 movement with 65 fuel plus it's firepower is pretty devastating. Fuel would have to be cut dramatically to compensate.

Panzer3L
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:32 pm

Post by Panzer3L » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:30 am

dshaw62197 wrote:I always thought People's General handled air units in a logical, believable manner. Air units were not represented as actual units on the playing field, but rather as assets that could be called in to perform various tasks (interdiction, bombardment, recon, etc.). Air "points" determined how many missions could be performed in a turn (for example, simple recon flights cost 1 point, whereas heavy bombing runs could cost 5 points). Maybe something to consider in the future?
I never like that even though it was kinda realistic for modern jet planes.
As for gameplay i found it very boring,i like to micro manage things :)

uran21
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 2070
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:34 pm

Post by uran21 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:27 pm

Movement for air units was done arbitrary and in line with PG. If formula is applied and consistent it could make some units too slow other too fast. Is it good or bad is an open question. Personally I do not like when you do not need to think about distances and refuelling, it gives airfields more strategic value.

Razz1
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:49 am
Location: USA

Post by Razz1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:25 pm

If your going to use air speed you should include Altitude, as the higher you can fly, the easier it is to bounce the enemy.

Iscaran
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Post by Iscaran » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:02 pm

I agree on Kerenskys argument that the speed of air units should get better represented.

The fuel amount could also be correlated to data about maximum possible fly distance which should be available for at least all historically existing and relevant craft. The rest could be adjusted by comparison and projected data perhaps ?

If 650 miles was the maximum distance for a ME-262 then that would correlate to 10miles = 1 fuel unit. One could apply that to all aircraft - but a scaling factor of 10 might be too low.

Perhaps 15 ? that would make the Me-262 have 41/42 fuel ? I did not check on the rest.

Also perhaps make a lowest speed of 10 for aircraft ? Like 10 + 1 per 30 miles above 300mph

Iscaran
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Post by Iscaran » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:12 pm

Altitude could be a measuring factor for inititiave. Or at least an indicator for initiative.

As usually attacks from fighters vs bombers were done from behind and above as that was the least defended spot obviously.

bobk
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:26 pm

Post by bobk » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:29 pm

What is the time scale for a "turn" in this game? If it is more than minutes, then speed is no more relevant than facing at this scale. If a turn is measured in hours, then range and fuel would matter, but not really speed.
You are not turning and banking to outfly your opponent, you just need to reach him.

Obsolete
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1203
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 5:25 pm

Post by Obsolete » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:32 pm

I always thought People's General handled air units in a logical, believable manner.
The reason this was changed, was due to the addition of helicopters taking over the role of the previous air units.
Image
Experience Ratio = (def exp level + 2)/(att exp level + 2)
Entrenchment Ratio = (def entr rate + 1) /(att entr rate + 1)

Iscaran
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Post by Iscaran » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:51 pm

PzC is an abstraction and the stats of units are as well - therefore for the actual purpose the data on the craft do matter and IMO should somehow reflect their actual "combat" value and usage parameters - yet their sizes and numbers are quite abstracted for the use on the hexagon field.

It also would not matter whether the time scale is minutes or days ...the battle is abstracted. But the early scenarios would fit into a day or a few days per turn scale.

I did not really liked the way how aircraft were done in Peoples General - though they made the best out of the way they changed it.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7172
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Post by Kerensky » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Ahh interesting, and quite enlightening. Sorry, this is something I've never really understood myself, I was honestly curious.

If top speed, or cruising speed, divided by a variable is too severe. Aircraft could be divided up into ranks.

Planes falling into the 200-300 mph range will have movement 10 or 11.
Planes falling into 300-400 mph range will have movement 12 or 13.
Planes falling into 500-600 mph range will have movement 14 15.
Me163 will be 16 movement probably.

It's not a big deal though, just throwing ideas around.

wyldman68
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:32 pm

Post by wyldman68 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:03 pm

I would not use top speed, cruising speed should be used.

And if my memory is correct the Me163 had an endurance of something like 7.5 minutes and then it glided back to earth.

VPaulus
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 8149
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: Portugal

Post by VPaulus » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:47 pm

wyldman68 wrote:I would not use top speed, cruising speed should be used.

And if my memory is correct the Me163 had an endurance of something like 7.5 minutes and then it glided back to earth.
+1
At least no more than 15 minutes and it was used against bombers.

AgentX
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Sergeant First Class - Panzer IIIL
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:38 pm

Post by AgentX » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:37 pm

Kerensky wrote:Ahh interesting, and quite enlightening. Sorry, this is something I've never really understood myself, I was honestly curious.

If top speed, or cruising speed, divided by a variable is too severe. Aircraft could be divided up into ranks.

Planes falling into the 200-300 mph range will have movement 10 or 11.
Planes falling into 300-400 mph range will have movement 12 or 13.
Planes falling into 500-600 mph range will have movement 14 15.
Me163 will be 16 movement probably.

It's not a big deal though, just throwing ideas around.
I think that is a much better idea and would result in far less variation of movement speeds. Maybe leave the Me262 at 15, though, since it didn't go over 600mph and your 14/15 bracket is the 500-600mph range. I think 15 is plenty.

uran21
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 2070
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:34 pm

Post by uran21 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:24 am

Kerensky wrote:Ahh interesting, and quite enlightening. Sorry, this is something I've never really understood myself, I was honestly curious.

If top speed, or cruising speed, divided by a variable is too severe. Aircraft could be divided up into ranks.

Planes falling into the 200-300 mph range will have movement 10 or 11.
Planes falling into 300-400 mph range will have movement 12 or 13.
Planes falling into 500-600 mph range will have movement 14 15.
Me163 will be 16 movement probably.

It's not a big deal though, just throwing ideas around.
This would make a good approach.

uran21
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 2070
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:34 pm

Post by uran21 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:25 am

VPaulus wrote:
wyldman68 wrote:I would not use top speed, cruising speed should be used.

And if my memory is correct the Me163 had an endurance of something like 7.5 minutes and then it glided back to earth.
+1
At least no more than 15 minutes and it was used against bombers.
Right. Komet is already exaggerated with its fuel to make it somehow gameplay value as flying air defense.

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps Open Beta”