DLC 43 Kharkov

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El_Condoro
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DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by El_Condoro » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:51 pm

I just opened the Kharkov scenario and see there are very few SS (SE) units on the map. This was perhaps the greatest victory of the II SS Panzer Korps, so I am wondering why LSSAH, SSTK and Das Reich are not better represented.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by VPaulus » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:32 pm

SS it's OK with a mod, but not with an official product. :wink:

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by El_Condoro » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:20 pm

Call them SE for the sake of product sales but surely that doesn't mean we have to throw history out the door all together, does it?

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Kerensky » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:42 pm

The SE unit limit for DLC 1943 has been increased to 6, which is double the base game!

Many players entering DLC 43 with imported CORES will probably have 5 SE units and pick up their 6th pretty quickly. The starter CORE has 3 SE units, and I'd expect them to be up to 5 or 6 by the time DLC 43 ends.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by El_Condoro » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:05 pm

OK, fair enough. It's hard to get an SE Panzer Korps together with the current lack of SE units in the base game, anyway. The Elite Unit mod by airbornemongo helps modders but it would be good to add more icons eventually for the upcoming DLCs which will feature more and more SE (SS) units - if historical accuracy is at all important. I expect Kursk will have the same issue - better get back into the DLC to find out...

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Kerensky » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:13 pm

As SE units are only designed to be bonus units, I don't think they will get any added unit types. New art and assets can only be added to the game as part of a large expansion now, so maybe when we see Afrika Corps we'll possibly get additional SE units, but not before then.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:36 pm

OK, here we go ;)

No problems during the installation.

Kharkov43:

Playing on FM level with a imported '42 core.

Starting with 41.8k prestige before upgrades, down to 32.6k after upgrades.

I am using my usual fairly armor/artillery/air heavy core units - 6 infantry, 12 armor, 2 TDs, 1 recon, 11 artillery, 1 AAA, 4 fighter, 1 fighter-bomber, 5 Stuka.

I split up my forces pretty evenly, with a slight emphasis on armor on the flanks.


The Soviet armor that is rushing to the front on after turn 2 does hurt a bit, but nothing too serious (Gebirgsjäger down to 3, one Pioniere down to 6). It got much closer after turn 4, the Soviet armored attack around Severodonetsk brought my Pioniere down to 1 from 14 str.

With the frozen conditions the Tiger Is problems can be seen here, they simply lack good range due to the gigantic amount of fuel they need.

Found a couple of Soviet infantry while following a retreating Soviet tank on the western edge of the map, might have been trouble for the captured Soviet officers (got my first one from capturing Mashivka).

Clear/dry weather by turn 5 which promptly brought a wave of Soviet planes. During this turn the AI moved 3 units onto river hexes - I know that nothing can be done here with a DLC, but it still bothers me ;)

Reached Opishnya (unoccupied) and the south of the outskirts of Kharkov by turn 6. More Soviet tanks joining he battle - this time around Chuhuiv at the end of turn 6 - and I start to feel some pressure from the Soviets now.

Got my 2nd Soviet officer from Vodolaha and the 3rd one on turn 9 from Chuhuiv.

During turn 9 the last of the Soviet armored units around Severodonetsk was destroyed by a combination of Panzer, Stuka and 21cm Mrs. In addition Bohodukhiv fell (yielding another officer) and the airfield to he NW of Kharkow was taken.

Okhtyrka falls at turn 10 (giving me a captured SU-122) and the ring around Kharkov is closed. Soviet armor launches a counterattack from the NE this time, supported by another wave of planes (3). In its eagerness to damage one of my Wurfrahmen a fighter attacks it right next to one of my FW 190s resulting in its destruction (bad move).

Turn 12 saw the destruction of the defenders of Zolochiv (which I will not occupy till the last turn) and only the engineers defending Kharkov center are left in the city and during turn 13 they are eliminated as well. Weather keeps switching between sunny and cloudy, with no clouds this turn the Soviet armor gets pounded by Stukas.

By turn 13 the last Soviet tanks around Shevchenkove are destroyed and the city is taken with the same happening in Troits'ke. Burluk is taken without any resistance. At the moment it looks like except for the wave units and the positions around Kharkov/Izyum and Severodonetsk the map is not having lots of Soviet units (IMO there should be at least 1 defender in each city).

The AT guarding Valuyki is destroyed during turn 14 and Vovchans'k and its airfield are occupied as well, leaving only Zolochiv.


DV 20/20 (only turn with rain btw) with 31.9k prestige - it is good that I lost some prestige since I played fairly aggressively due to having no idea how comfortable 20 turns are for taking all objectives - with all those upgradeed units the repair bill will be fairly huge as well. The game was won at turn 14 and I could have been more carefull, but the result is OK and I still have tons of prestige anyway.

Nice large Soviet armored attacks all around, but I would have liked/expected a few more units on both flanks after the attacks have been dealt with.

All in all a good start for the new scenario. For a imported core with enough prestige to upgrade all units this is fairly easy, but it will be interesting to see how a fresh core is doing here. A fine 1st scenario for a new DLC IMO.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:59 am

DLC 43 Testing, Manstein

Kharkov 43

I started playing on Manstein, DLC 43 with the DLC starting core. The scenarios listed in DLC 43 are all pretty much Manstein's battles.

I cannot begin to describe just how brutal of a fight it was. If you fancy yourself an expert, or if you think the game is too easy, try this scenario on Manstein with the DLC 43 core. The only scenario that is comparable is Spoils of War, even Moscow or Stalingrad pales in comparison. I restarted once, and even then I felt like I barely made MV, although to be fair I was actually pretty close to getting DV. Admittedly I have been kind of rusty, not having to face 15+ strength AI units in some time, but the AI still took me by surprise.

The quality and quantity of AI units is nearly perfect. Kharkov was much better defended than I expected. The AI used a large variety of units, with reasonably good tactics.

I don't know about the other difficulties, but on Manstein, the AI will ford the Donets without going through bridges. This massively increases the difficulty, as often there are barely enough units to plug the gaps.

I *only* lost six units, but it felt like I was nearly destroyed in the battle. MV only rewarded something like 800 prestige? Seems a bit low, but okay, bring on the challenge.

I elite reinforced way too much during this battle. I might actually lose the campaign, but onwards!

Other Notes:

Shouldn’t 43 pionieres have 3 initiative, to keep with giving all 43 infantry +1 initiative to help them fight tanks in close terrain?

I would remove the captured Sherman and replace it with a captured T-34/41. The sad truth is those captured Shermans just aren’t very useful. They are slow, poorly armored and armed, and I bet most players would just disband it next scenario for prestige.

I recommend increasing the starting prestige by 1-2k. Since the starting core doesn’t have heroes/or units like the 14-strength/4 star stukas, it does make things quite a bit harder. Some extra prestige helps.

Recommend adding a few aux SE units to this scenario, for more historical flavor.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by LostAgain » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:01 am

Playing at the Colonel level with an imported core. I only have one problem with this scenario and must admit it's not a big one. When I captured my first Russian officer it had level 10 experience and not realizing it was a Russian officer I used it as a captured piece of equipment until the second one appeared (with level 13 experience), and I realized something was wrong and took a good look. Is there some way that these units could be identified that would remove all doubt? Like I said, minor, but had I lost that first officer prior to the second appearing I'd have been left wondering if it had in fact been an officer or was indeed just a captured recce vehicle.

EDIT...I've replayed the scenario and the first Russian officer DID start with 13 experience point. Mea Culpa. I guess it was attacked immediately and lost some points.
Last edited by LostAgain on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Longasc
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Longasc » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:11 am

Kharkov 43
Default starter core - 6500 Prestige
FM level, all options enabled and no reloading, not any kind of cheat as usual - this time not even for SE units (though I still don't like the way they are distributed).

The core seems okay - till you see the Russians! A little low on XP but good and strong SE units and all in all not bad!
But the Russkies got even better stuff to throw at you.

I gave up in turn 17. I could have captured everything by turn 20, I was making good progress but the losses were SHATTERING and I was at 1337 Prestige (yeah, really. I used only normal reinforcements!).
I lost some 8-12 units till then (I stopped counting!). Infantry fell to SMG Infantry and tank attacks. A Stuka got shot down by suddenly appearing LaGG fighters. Flak killed a bomber. Some Panzer IV got killed by Russian tanks. SMG Infantry crippled StuGs in the open field.

The objectives were clear, though the suddenly appearing Officers were a bit confusing.

Don't get me wrong: It's a VERY interesting and rewarding scenario. I love to play it as a scenario. But as part of the campaign it's horror.
My starter core lost so many units that I think I should have gone slower. Should replay, but I found this much more difficult than any Stalingrad scenario.


All in all I think buffing the XP of the core units and giving them better equip - Stuka Ju87D instead of B for instance, Panzer IVG instead of IVF2 - might do it.
I am not used to have no Sturmpanzers, but all in all I think it was just a hard scenario for the starter core.

I will replay and then try the 2nd scenario. This scenario needs to be checked. Maybe fewer Guards or stronger starter core. Maybe be doable for people with several 10-20K Prestige but starter core gets only 6500 and suffers heavy losses due to some units being rather dated.

I think it's fine for an imported core, but starting in this year was a harsh experience for me.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by ivanov » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:32 am

I have just completed the Kharkov scenario. I play on the colonel with a default core, so the overal experience has to be similar to the average player.

In general, I am very pleased with the scenario - I love the defensive aspect of it. I think that there is too little infantry in the default core ( at least for this scenario ). I'd replaced the captured Sherman and KV with the two Panzergrenadier units. At this stage of the campaign, when the Germans can field some decent tanks themselves, there is no point realy in using the captured Soviet equipment. There is good bit of urban fighting in the close terrain ( cities, forests ), so more infantry would be a blessing.

I was suprised that the Soviets actually went after the captured oficers - they send two the T -34s and an infantry unit out of nowhere, so I had to withdrawal some units from the first line in order to protect them. I think it may be a good idea, to advice the players that those units need to be protected, because that messed a bit with my advance on the main axist towards Kharkow.

I don't mind that there are few SS units - the core is not historical one, plus in in reality there not only SS units taking part in this battle.

The clash was epic and I am hugely impressed by it.
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

deducter
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:08 am

Longasc wrote:Kharkov 43

I gave up in turn 17. I could have captured everything by turn 20, I was making good progress but the losses were SHATTERING and I was at 1337 Prestige (yeah, really. I used only normal reinforcements!).
I lost some 8-12 units till then (I stopped counting!). Infantry fell to SMG Infantry and tank attacks. A Stuka got shot down by suddenly appearing LaGG fighters. Flak killed a bomber. Some Panzer IV got killed by Russian tanks. SMG Infantry crippled StuGs in the open field.

I will replay and then try the 2nd scenario. This scenario needs to be checked. Maybe fewer Guards or stronger starter core. Maybe be doable for people with several 10-20K Prestige but starter core gets only 6500 and suffers heavy losses due to some units being rather dated.

I think it's fine for an imported core, but starting in this year was a harsh experience for me.
I'm actually quite surprised you lost so many units on FM. Unless you advance too aggressively, you shouldn't suffer that many losses. My StuG IIIG were often 2-5 in favor vs T-34s/41, even if I have 10 strength and they have 15 strength. The tougher T-34/43 can be dealt with with the Tigers and the stukas, then the StuG IIIG can mop them up;.

The wonder unit is the StuG. Cheap, powerful, and relatively disposable.

If anything about the starting core should be tweaked, it should be to remove two of the PzIIIs (keep the SE one and one of the PzIIIN), and change those to towed artillery I'd take a 10.5 cm and a 21 cm one. There are only 6 artillery in the starter core, which is far too few.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Kerensky » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:28 am

If the opening scenario of DLC 43 is too hard, maybe the best solution to make it easier is to gift some temporary, AUX SE units. Will cushion the difficulty a bit and works as a nod towards the historical battle.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:38 am

Kerensky wrote:If the opening scenario of DLC 43 is too hard, maybe the best solution to make it easier is to gift some temporary, AUX SE units. Will cushion the difficulty a bit and works as a nod towards the historical battle.
I think the scenario is fine in terms of difficulty. I actually think the current setup makes for a very fun, epic scenario. Just adding a few SE units and tweaking the starting core slightly will help enough, don't start deleting Soviet units or reducing their EXP. The war certainly should be hard now, gone is the time of easy victories.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by monkspider » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:47 am

First of all, thanks so much for allowing me back on the beta team! It is as always an honor. Nothing gets a weekend started quite like a brand spankin' new Panzer Corps Campaign.

Two quick thoughts, on the screen that shows the new units available, it doesn't show the Tiger I, which is KINDA important news. 8)

One other quick thought, is the ME-410 fighter/bomber a new unit? I don't remember seeing it before. The unit artwork looks a little..odd though. One of the engines looks like it was pasted on with Microsoft Paint or something, it just doesn't quite look right.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by ivanov » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:22 am

Kerensky wrote:If the opening scenario of DLC 43 is too hard, maybe the best solution to make it easier is to gift some temporary, AUX SE units. Will cushion the difficulty a bit and works as a nod towards the historical battle.
I personally don't think that the opening scenario is too hard. The default core is strong enough and your Panzers can go through Soviets like hot knife throught butter:)

Some players may find it difficult because it's not only about capturing obectives, but also about defence because the Red Army is counterattacking here during the whole scenario ( especially along the left flank ). So IMO, it would be sefficient to make the players aware during the initial brefing that the strong counterattack are expected.
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by monkspider » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:14 am

Kharkov '43
Using an imported core
General difficulty level
starting prestige 4500
after upgrades 500
Ending prestige 691
DV on turn 18
SU-122 captured in Oshtyka
Lossses: 1x Wehrmacht Infantry


Wow, this scenario really starts things off with a bang! This has to be maybe the most complex scenario to date. Manstein's legendary "Backhand Blow" is considered by many to be his most impressive victory and there are so many units and so many different fronts to keep track of here, it really captures the complex nature of the battle nicely. I think Manstein would have been pretty happy with it.

I imported my core but I hardly have the overwhelming core that some players do. I doubt that mine is that much stronger than the default core. My troops are still licking their wounds from the horrors of Stalingrad and although It sounds like my units are better off in terms of experience, I am worse off in terms of prestige and some of my units are captured units that I can't bring myself to upgrade (or can't afford to upgrade). I still have a Char B1, a couple T-34/40s and even an antique piece of captured Polish artillery from way back in the old Warsaw days.

There is no doubt that it is a difficult scenario, I was pretty hard-pressed and for several turns, victory did seem to be in doubt. Prestige was critical for me, I could only afford to upgrade my two SS units to Tigers and throughout the battle, I would never have a comfortable prestige reserve. This made me approach the battle even more cautiously than normal, which actually ended up working to my benefit. I was surprised by the Soviet counterattack that came across the Donets and for a time retook the objective in the southwest part of the map but I was advancing slowly enough that it wasn't a huge burden to divert some forces south to retake the city. A significant portion of my troops would have to be used for guard duty for the rest of the battle however.

I think your suggestion about adding some Aux SS units would be prudent. I think they would at least serve as useful sentries and allow us to send a larger percentage of our troops north for the assault on Kharkov.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by OmegaMan1 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:34 am

As always, I'd first like to say thanks to the PzC development team and Slitherine for allowing me to participate in the DLC beta. :)

I downloaded and installed both the 1.06 beta and the DLC with no problems. Game runs smoothly, no issues in my first play-through.

I will be playing through the beta with the generic core that comes with the campaign, on Colonel difficulty.

Kharkov '43
DV in 20 turns.
Start prestige: 6500.
End prestige: 1347.
Units purchased: Artillery, two recons, Bf110, Tiger I, Panzer IIIN.
Units lost: Artillery, two recons, Bf110, two Panzers, pioniere (all core).
Medals: none. Heroes: none.

The 1943 campaign kicks off with a replay of Manstein's "backhand blow" at Kharkov. Taking heed of the commander's warning, I decide to split my force into three general groups. The left flank force will make the long drive north to Kharkov, while the right flank force keeps the Russians at bay behind the Donets. That leaves my center force to be used to help either flank as needed. My first event of the mission is capturing my first Soviet officer at Mashivka on turn 3. As I race him down to the "A" zone, I happen to see a line of Russian forces waiting in the westernmost hexrow. Since I assume these will threaten to "liberate" my captive officers at some point, I launch a pre-emptive attack against these forces. While this takes my left force some time to accomplish, I feel good knowing that the Russian threat is eliminated early on.

The snow stopped falling on turn 5, and after that the Donets began flowing again. This made my right flank's defensive role much easier, although the Russians still made multiple efforts to cross the river. In particular, the Russians launched repeated attacks on the bridgehead near Kramatorsk, and I would end up defending that area throughout the course of the mission. Meanwhile, my left flank force took its first objective, Vodolaha, on turn 8, and this netted me my second captive officer. From there I raced the bulk of my armored forces north, taking Bohodvkhin on turn 10 with a recon unit (it was unoccupied at the time), and ran smack into a Russian armored train! Thankfully I was able to destroy the beast before it brought any losses to my forces. (I also secured my third Soviet captive here.) On turn 11, the Russians launched a punishing counterattack near Balakliya, which cost me three units. I was able to get my center force back into shape and, after defeating the attack, took Balakliya on turn 14. Meantime I snagged my first captured unit of the campaign, an SU-122 up at Okhtyrka; I was very pleased to get this unit, as I recall just how powerful it was in the '42 DLC!

My forces fought their way into Kharkov and took the westernmost city objective on turn 16. A vicious fight developed near the airfield objective hex south of Kharkov, as there was a KV-2 occupying the hex that would not die -- it took two Tigers to finally beat the defender into submission on turn 19. Heavy fighting continued in Kharkov, and it went down to the final turn when I finally cleared all of the Kharkov hexes and secured the whole city. (I also gained two more Soviet captives at Zolochiv and Chuhuiv, although these weren't necessary for the decisive victory.

Before I comment on the mission, I think I may have found a bug: even though I had three officers in the "A" zone and all of my objectives captured, I still received a marginal victory. I reloaded the final turn of my game and, after several reloads and some trial and error, I discovered that the two cities that are labeled with A's (Pereshchepyne at 7,24 and Verbky at 13,27) do NOT seem to register as "A" hexes. I learned this because when I originally finished the mission I had a Soviet officer in each city. Only after taking both units out of the cities and placing them in other A zone hexes did I receive a DV. I've saved my final turn from the game in case the devs would like to take a look.

Besides this issue, the only other (minor) problem is that the Russian AI kept sending units over bridges and straight into my units for repeated ambushes. It did this at least three times on the bridgehead closest to the objective airfield. I recall this has occurred in the past, so I'm not sure it's anything new.

Otherwise, this was a solid mission to start off the 1943 campaign. Lots of action going on, a good measure of both offensive and defensive activity, and a nice secondary challenge to keep things interesting. Other than the issue above, the AI was as challenging as always, and made the scenario just difficult enough that it was enjoyable without being too impossible. A great way to start the campaign, looking forward to marching on Belogrod next.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Longasc » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:42 am

I think the difficulty boils down to the imported troops vs the default core. The default core has some older III/IV models that are probably upgraded to the best model by players importing the core.

The thing is the weaker units aren't as valuable as stronger units when there is lots of ground to cover. So you fight sometimes with less than optimal tanks against bad odds. KV vs IIIN and Infantry till Stukas and a anti-tank unit arrive is going to cost Prestige.

I think 3 AUX SE tanks more would work wonders. Stronger models please, IIIL/M or IVG.
I even think only the default core would need this buff, as imported cores start already as organized fighting groups where the default core has to fight as it is and has to be reconfigured somewhat to suit the particular player for later scenarios.

I am going in again this afternoon.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Longasc » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:03 pm

4 turns in, no unit losses and considerably lower losses - thanks to recently having played the scenario, a more cautious approach an...
... upgrading IIIJ/1 and rather shitty recon units to the great "233" version that eats Conscripts (but not Guards).

Also got luckier with the dice, my Tigers e.g. didn't take any damage so far. But sometimes the T-34/43 also refuse to die to anything but a StuG/Tiger. Default core Stukas don't have the extreme 4-5 stars some 39' Stukas might have, so my progress is slow but steady.

Anyways, just a progress report. Seems to work out better this time and I think I will make less lossy progress through the next turns as well.

EDIT: Turn 9, no losses, good Prestige, all okay. More to follow in a few hours! :)
EDIT2: Stuka barely survived attack by 2 Lachovkin La-5. They have strong air attack values. This time I was way luckier than in my first run.
Last edited by Longasc on Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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