DLC 43 Kharkov

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snakepliskin2010
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by snakepliskin2010 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:39 pm

Decisive Victory turn 17, fun scenario, counterattacks keep you on your toes..reinforcement wise I bought Tiger 1's and rocket half tracks..epic

ivanov
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by ivanov » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:12 pm

I didn't have any considerable difficulties with the scenario, but I would agree that the prestige has to be increased. I probably won't have a chance to to play Belogrod unitl Monday, but I suspect that if in the upcoming battles the level of attrition will persist, I will have very few units in my core left, even before the Battle of Kursk will start:)
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by monkspider » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:23 pm

Oh yeah, i almost forgot, I think I did experience some kind of a bug. During deployment, my three SE infantry units somehow lost their transportation when I imported my core. They used to have the very best transports but due to prestige issues I had to settle for the second-tier half-tracks.

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:29 pm

Just finished turn 11 on my new game on FM with the DLC core. I think comparing the strategic map of this game vs. the one with the imported core is fairly revealing.

imported core:
Image

DLC core:
Image

Despite me knowing the map from my first game I am lagging way behind the game with the imported core. Instead of rushing north around Shevchenkove and having encircled Kharkov I am still slugging it out with the 2nd wave of attacks. Izyum is barely touched here as well.

Longasc
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Longasc » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:13 pm

Kharkov - DV 16/20 (2nd try)
3126 Prestige from 6500 starting prestige
I lost 1 or 2 units, and it was close at least twice. I bought one Tiger.

Dunno... why it worked out better this time. Still FM difficulty.
Maybe upgrading the units and knowledge of the enemy positions and attack waves helped.

I still think some helpers would be nice, there is a potential for a failure cascade once you lose units in this scenario. As shown before. :>

deducter
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:03 pm

I agree with the need for some aux SE units, but I don't think this scenario is really that hard, even with the 1943 starting core. I lost a total of 1 unit, a stuka, and made DV in 18/20. I don't think I even touched the reinforcement button this scenario.

If anything, this scenario seems too easy for anyone with an imported core. There's really little that can be done to limit a player with 2-3 heroes on his units, 13-14 overstrength elite units, and a massive reserve of prestige. Perhaps those players who have done very well thus far should try one of the bonus difficulties (although I guess Rommel won't be interesting for someone with 40k prestige).

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:46 pm

FM - DLC 43 core

In order to be able to compare this to my imported core I used the same "unwise" tactic of forcing my way across the river in the SE.

Took Mashivka at turn 4 and upgraded the single Bf 109F to a FW 190A at turn 5. Already at this early point of the scenario I see a huge difference between the starting core and an imported one. I think that it might be worth considering to give the DLC core units some initial kills/heroes, this should help to lessen the gap.

At turn 7 the weather became Clear/Dry and brought a fresh wave of Soviet planes in addition to an assault in the area of Severodonetsk. I upgraded the Ju 87B to a 87D. Opishnya is occupied unopposed.

Vodolaha and Balakliya are taken on turn 10 and it looks like the next wave of tanks has been activated around Severodonetsk.

Okhtyrka falls at turn 11, followed by Bohodukhiv at 13 along with the airfield at Izyum.

At turn 14 the airfield around Chuhuiv and Kharkov are occupied and I start to feel the time ticking away for a DV with a lot of forces still being stuck in the south instead of being nicely lined up behing the river and/or rushing north, but the at least around Severodonetsk and Izyum the situation has largely improved by now.

By turn 15 the last Soviet forces in the Severodonetsk area are destroyed and Izyum is taken, Chuhuiv is taken as well. Since I am down to 1500 prestige (about 600 spend on upgrades) I DO appreciate that the right flank should be fairly devoid of defenders ;)

At turn 16 the first two Kharkov flags change hands, but my forces are a bit roughed up (trying to preserve some prestige for upgrades later - 1650 atm) and a lot are still guarding the river, this will be a close one. Especially after the nasty spawn of 2 AAA, 1 srtillery and 1 AT around Zolochiv (forgot to move a unit right next to the flag).

Hmm, the AI is helping me to win, it attacked one of my infantry in Kharkov with a SMG unit, but my unit was protected by a Wurfrahmen, overall the SMG went down from 11 to 2 HP.

Turn 19 - weather turned cloudy and there is still a 12HP Eng sitting in the center of Kharkov (lvl5 entrenchment) and 10HP Regulars in Zolochiv (lvl5 entrenchment as well), but I should have enough forces in place by now to take both.

Kharkov is taken and I rush my Wurfrahmen and Tiger to Zolochiv where 2 AAAs were destroyed and 2 bombers and 1 artillery have brought down the defenders to 10HP and a entrenchment of 2.

With fine weather on turn 20 and enough forces in place Zolochiv falls and I even manage to sneak up a Panzer into the undefended Burluk and my forces on the eastern flank take Troitske

DV at 20/20 with 1940 prestige - lost no units and upgraded a fighter and a Stuka - but the repair bill should be fairly big ;). I failed to take 4 objectives and if I had used the same (stupid) tactic (crossing the river instead of defending behind it) without knowing the scenario I am very sure that a DV would have been impossible for me, but then you should not win at FM using stupid tactics, so this is ok.

BTW, do the Soviets kill themself at the river early enough that you are able to take some objectives to the east later on?

With the next beta release I will give this one another shot with the DLC core, this time without rushing across the river - spending about 5k on reinforcements even during the scenario largely due to jumping into the meatgrinder does hurt a bit ;)

Basically this game has proven my assumption about a large gap between imported and a fresh DLC to be very true. A strong imported core is simply able to blast its way through any opposition, even if this would be close to suicidal for a fresh core. Since this will most likely even get worse the longer the game runs I think that adding some initial kills/heroes to the DLC core might be a good idea. IMO just adding more aux units will not help in the long run. The heroes effectiveness (at least for +attack/defense ones) will diminish with better units, but things like range/movement will stay fairly powerful. And with imported cores getting more and more heroes over time and the new cores having none I see some problems there.

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:59 pm

deducter wrote:If anything, this scenario seems too easy for anyone with an imported core. There's really little that can be done to limit a player with 2-3 heroes on his units, 13-14 overstrength elite units, and a massive reserve of prestige. Perhaps those players who have done very well thus far should try one of the bonus difficulties (although I guess Rommel won't be interesting for someone with 40k prestige).
I just cheated my way through the original campaign on FM yesterday, but with what you described about your experience on Manstein I very much doubt I would do anything other than slowly bleed to death prestige wise. From what I have seen in the past Guderian is not that hard (but might limit my prestige a bit) and I agree that it is a bit late for Rommel ;)

But I think I will give Manstein a shot anyway, lets see how long 40k will last ;)

Kerensky
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Kerensky » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:09 pm

Just as a quick word, I would be infinitely happier to hear the first scenario of a DLC campaign is 'too easy' rather than hear that it is 'too hard'.

The feedback is good so far though, eagerly looking forward to Kursk impressions!

deducter
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:25 pm

charonjr wrote:
deducter wrote:If anything, this scenario seems too easy for anyone with an imported core. There's really little that can be done to limit a player with 2-3 heroes on his units, 13-14 overstrength elite units, and a massive reserve of prestige. Perhaps those players who have done very well thus far should try one of the bonus difficulties (although I guess Rommel won't be interesting for someone with 40k prestige).
I just cheated my way through the original campaign on FM yesterday, but with what you described about your experience on Manstein I very much doubt I would do anything other than slowly bleed to death prestige wise. From what I have seen in the past Guderian is not that hard (but might limit my prestige a bit) and I agree that it is a bit late for Rommel ;)

But I think I will give Manstein a shot anyway, lets see how long 40k will last ;)
Heh, 40k prestige will go a long way. I still don't know how you managed to get that much prestige. The only way I can imagine doing that is if you never elite reinforce and barely ever overstrength. The thing is Manstein is not quite that bad when your units are 13-14 overstrength and 3-4 stars, and if you have plenty of artillery/air cover. I'd deploy extra fighters if they have them, and watch your stukas very, very carefully. I'm almost certain that the initiative bonus is cumulative with your unit's strength, so it will allow your Tigers/Panthers to crush the T-34s, KV tanks, etc. with almost no losses as long as it is not raining or snowing. It should be reasonably challenging though, and you will at least be forced to use your prestige.

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:44 am

Basically I think all of this prestige is a cumulative effect from me trying to get medals/kills and the fairly gamey/ahistoric core I use most of the time.

Due to this I play each scenario right till the last turn before taking the final objective (kills + prestige on defensive IIRC). In addition I get lots of heroes that way which lets me finish off enemies faster and lower the damage inflicted on my units.

I always overstrength my units up to the max, but will often wait with reinforcements (always elite - unless at the XP cap) till the scenario is over.

Using fairly Stuka/artillery/armor heavy cores did help, too (faster kills, less damage taken). I have/am using 4 FW 190A atm, but am starting to think that I need another 1-2 since I will need 2 for each enemy plane on Manstein (Me 410A is fairly good, too).

I am currently at turn 6 now and you are right, it is easier than I thought, but playing the map for the 3rd time now surely factors heavily into this, too.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:42 am

My post would read like many of the others. Tough scenario and I feel like more prestige is needed to get through. I imported core units but had a tough time with elite reinforcements.

I got the impression that Soviets would not cross the Donets, but then they did in large strength and I had to turn units around. It was ugly.

The Soviets from the west side sweeping down also caused a turn around. I like the surprise, but not really. Caused an oh crap moment and turned a few more units around.

Overall, these flank problems left fewer units to attack north so it took all 20 turns.

I was also confused by the captured officers, I thought they were captured equipment until I read who they were and started them moving south. I almost had one run out of gas near the end but I did get 4 of them there.

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:26 pm

Manstein - imported core - light on infantry for this scenario

OKH has given me a 6th SE unit (Pz IIIM), seems like the guys there know that this will get ugly ;)

Starting with 32.8k prestige after upgrades for most of my units and selling older tanks who didnt have any stars.

Waited till turn 9 this time before crossing the river (in the south) after the current wave of tanks and infantry suicided itself at my Tigers waiting happily behind the river.

At turn 13 the first 2 Kharkov city hexes were taken and the defenders of Zolochiv are destroyed. At turn 14 Kharkov falls, so I could get a DV right now, but there are still a couple of objectives left (still slugging it out with Soviet armor around Izyum).

DV at 20/20 with 32.3k prestige - took all other objectives as well - so basically I lost 0.5k and whatever I got during the scenario (without the prestige at the end) in addition to what it will cost me to repair my units.

One thing I have learned is that at Manstein I have to change my usuall kill-farm-tactics since I am simply unable to keep up with new overstrength units spawning every turn, so I have to move a unit right next to the flag every other turn. This changes once the AI has gone though all its saved up prestige it seems, towards the end only 3 units are spawning each turn.

And it shows that even Manstein is not that hard if you are able to field tons of Tigers and have overstrength units with a bunch of heroes, but it will be interesting to see how my prestige will be effected in the long run.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by awaltering » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:50 pm

Default start, no imports from earlier campaigns. Admitting that I am not a hardcore player it was a very tough call. I made quite easy progress in the first few turns, advanced to quickly and got heavily beaten by the russian counterattacks. Gave up in turn 17 with all russian officers safe but no chance to conquer all objectives. So highly motivated, I´ll give it another try.

pickle
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by pickle » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:53 pm

First, my thanks for selecting me for this beta.

General level
Imported core
Starting prestige-3264 (level from last scenario in DLC'42).

Ended with about 800-managed a couple of upgrades by disbanding a Sherman and KV-1B but lost two core (one grenadier, one 88mm) . Have six open spots I cannot afford units for.

I had a heck of a time with this one. Started and re-started four times before finally figuring out what I was doing/how to do it. Those counterattacks across the Donets occupied all kinds of strength and also resulted in the two losses. All-in-all, a challenging start and a real balancing act when it comes to managing prestige (at least in my case).

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by derfderf » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:07 am

Was able to download the game and have played about 4 turns in. Ther game play is fine, but I would of hoped for a more interesting scenario to start. The scenario is much like all the others, at this point it doesn't really catch my interest. I think it may be time to think about a game which is palyed from the allies perspective.

ivanov
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by ivanov » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:13 am

derfderf wrote:Was able to download the game and have played about 4 turns in. Ther game play is fine, but I would of hoped for a more interesting scenario to start. The scenario is much like all the others, at this point it doesn't really catch my interest. I think it may be time to think about a game which is palyed from the allies perspective.
That is a blasphemy! :lol: No, seriously I LOVE this campaign so far - it's better than any PG or any other campaign I've played. It's absolutely epic. I think soon there will be also a lot of defensive action going on, which is my favorite type of warfare, so I am absolutely thrilled :mrgreen:

But I agree - hopefully the Allied or even better Soviet Corps will be released some day :shock:
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by BriteLite » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:35 pm

Kharkov, Lieutenant Difficulty, Prestige 9750, Default Core
DV Turn 20, Prestige 195
Losses 2xInf, 2xPzIII, 1xWerfer, 1xStuka
Captured 1xSU-122

I haven’t had much time recently to participate in Beta testing. Knowing I would be able to get more involved I was really looking forward to the ’43 Beta. After playing the first mission I see I will not be disappointed.

No issues d/l and installing. From the start the Soviet is well equipped with plenty of units. The AI is “observant” and ready to attack in strength if a weakness is exposed. Unsupported German units were always attacked, particularly infantry, if advanced alone. Enemy units demonstrated a level of aggressiveness I had not encountered in previous beta tests. The AI can still be fooled into designed traps but the number and quality of enemy units offset that advantage. I moved cautiously and was careful making sure advanced units were supported. PzIII’s were upgraded to PzIV-G when possible (SE Pz to Tiger). Stug to III-G. Always bought elite reinforcements. Most units were under strength by mission end. Like others have reported I kept the 3 group formations. On the right I cleared up to the Donets and held along the river. The center group advanced and forced a crossing at Shevchenkova then turned right. The left wing advanced directly to Kharkov. The Luftwaffe primarily supported the left wing.

Although the starting core is not quite historical I think it does reflect the German situation in 1943. The core is short of quality infantry and artillery. The cumulative losses at Stalingrad and elsewhere by 1942 created a manpower shortage that Germany never recovered from. The Russians are growing ever stronger and the US by the end of the year would tilt the balance even more.

Kharkov is a balanced scenario not for the faint of heart. IMHO the prestige nor the default core for this difficulty should not be adjusted. I don’t see it as too easy or too hard. Just right.

Thank you for allowing me to participate. The campaign/scenario design team are to be congratulated for what I believe is the best DLC scenario yet.

charonjr
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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by charonjr » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:09 pm

Btw, is it possible to start the first scenario in real setup mode, thus being able to customise the core a bit even with the DLC core? I think this might help with some of the problems, too.

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Re: DLC 43 Kharkov

Post by billmv44 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:18 pm

Playing on General, imported my core from the 1942 DLC Beta.

As mentioned by others, a very complex and challenging scenario. Prestige coming in seemed about right. It was hard, but not overwhelming. It would have been a bit easier had I detected the "surprise" Kerensky has staged on the far western side of the map sooner. I had to turn forces back to deal with it. I lost one unit, an SE Inf. that I foolishly left exposed with no retreat hex. The AI really went after it. It was a hard battle all the way to Kharkov, but I got the DV on turn 19. I could have got it a couple turns earlier, but I went prestige farming.

Prestige coming out of the scenario was just over 2000. I was able to re-strength all units with elite replacements to 10 strength, but I could only afford to boost a few to full over-strength (fighters and my two tigers). Additional prestige for winning a DV might be warranted, depending on how much the Belgorod DV is.

On to Belgorod!
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