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Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:14 pm
by Longasc
Default Core, FM.

A lot more prestige, a T-34 instead of a Sherman, a 21cm Artillery and much stronger units in general. NICE.

Early impressions:
It's going well. Very well. By far too well. But will this work out in the long run?

I am going for a TIGERS & STUGS strategy that concerns and bugs me somewhat. This will give me quite an edge over more historical setups. I upgraded asap most of the weaker Panzer III/IV/Marder units. I left the airforce as it is and only upgraded a Ju87B to Ju87D during an unexpected snowstorm.

Result: Tigers get never attacked. They are super strong. Sure, they take losses when you attack and only kill 1-2 units sometimes if they are unlucky.
---> But repairing a Tiger even with ELITE replacements is WAY cheaper than repairing half a dozen Panzer IIIM with normal replacements.

I dare to say it is a winning strategy that unfortunately gets reinforced by the extra Prestige that really allowed me immediate upgrading of all units while still having a Prestige reserve. That was better in Kharkov V1 where I would funnily have needed the Prestige to reinforce damaged units.
-> maybe in some later defensive scenarios higher per-turn income than huge start prestige?

With lots of Tigers and StuGIIIG backed up by StuH42 and other artillery you can create an impenetrable front and losses only occur to your weaker units and are quite predictable. The Tigers can' be everywhere and the enemy is attacking everywhere - where there are not enough Tigers and StuGs to form a protective screen.

I will see how this will play out in the later scenarios but so far "Better to upgrade to Tiger than to repair Panzer III/IV a lot" works out very well.
So let's see how well the mostly Tiger army will do. If it does too well I will have to use house rules and keep their numbers in check.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:36 pm
by taffjones
Playing on Cononel level
Pre set core
I didnt up grade any of the units during the game (prefere to do that between senarios) and went with what I had. Having played this battle quite a few times on V1 my battle plan was in place. Defend on the river with the right flank units and push up with the center and left flank units. The changes to the pre deployed units didnt make much of a diffrence, but the lowered level for accuring hero's was good. 3 units earned heros "should help in the hell hole battles to come". Overall the changes will help anyone starting with a non imported core and the increased prestige (which I am hoarding to upgrade to Panthers when they are available) should help players of my level continue through the DLC. With V1 my core was shattered and not enought prestige to continue after Orial :oops: Managed a DV on turn 16, became a bit more aggressive towards the end and ended up losing a Pzr IVG which I couldn't replace (do the captured russian officers take up a core slot?).
Will see how far I can manage to progress over the weekend and give feedback as I can. Sorry I dont give much detail but just a overview but the game is so good it sucks me in and I forget to save on the last turn (to go back and get details) and then can't wait to see whats comming next and just re-enforce/ upgrade and off I go. :D

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:58 pm
by charonjr
I have the feeling that lots of Tigers will works as long as the Soviet airforce plays a fairly minor role, once there are some Il-2 around replacing the losses will become more costly since at least I dont have enough fighters/AAA to cover my bombers, artillery and the tanks.

But yes, during Kharkov fielding more Tigers should be better. On the other hand I can not rule out that even later the smaller tanks will take enough damage to still make the Tigers the better choice. We will see, I try a mixed forces approach with beta 2.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:10 pm
by Longasc
@charonjr, I am looking forward to read your report! :)

DV 18/20, 1938 Prestige left
1 Stuka got shot by the Lalalalavochkin. Many units got upgraded.

Interestingly, here my 2nd try of Kharkov V1 for comparison:
Kharkov - DV 16/20 (2nd try)
3126 Prestige from 6500 starting prestige
I lost 1 or 2 units, and it was close at least twice. I bought one Tiger.

Remember, I bought ONE Tiger while I upgraded 3 or more to Tigers in V2.

-> let's see how the massive Tiger upgrades will pay off in Belgorod and Orel.

The Russian Airforce wasn't as strong this time, the stern motor Lavochkins will still rip Stukas apart.

(Interestingly the AI attacks only if it DOESN'T see the escort, otherwise they don't dare to attack even if they rip the Stuka apart, escort or not.)

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:42 pm
by Longasc
P.S. Soviet Engineers - they do a lot more damage than their Stars and Stats suggest. Do they have anti-tank attack bonuses or what, they shot a Tiger -4, that's something most tanks can't do. In open terrain.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:03 pm
by deducter
Freak luck probably. If you play tens of thousands, or probably hundreds of thousands of combat results, one of these is bound to pop up. Probably rolled 4 99-100s out of 10 dice.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:28 pm
by Longasc
Not sure, I have -1/-3 predictors in Kharkov on Bridge Engineers in a river with a Tiger. They were only "3" entrenched at this point. Soviet Guards can damage tanks a little in open terrain with some luck, but the Engineers can even top that.

So I am not sure if they don't have some extra traits, I will search the Panzequp. erm .dat or pzeqp, something like that. :)

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:33 pm
by Kerensky
This may also be caused by rugged defense.
If you ever attack 8 Entrenched Infantry on a fortification hex, you will see the prediction show up for a Panzer IV to be something like 1-2.
If a rugged defense is triggered though, the infantry is attacking Close Defense instead of Ground Defense, which can easily result is 5 or more tank casualties, something the predictor did not calculate.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:46 pm
by BriteLite
DLC43 Beta 2, Mission 1 Kharkov, Lieutenant Difficulty, Prestige 10500, Default Core
DV 17/20, End Prestige 436
Core Units Lost: 0
Aux Units Lost: 0

I followed the mission briefing by not crossing the Donets. The scenario feels similar to beta1 except for more prestige. I decided to go with Tiger, StuGIII and Me410 conversions when possible. Expensive but worth the expenditure to get the additional survivability.

Everything worked well. My only “complaint” was the exclusion of the strat bomber which was in the beta1 core.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:52 am
by produit
I played my first game with my imported core from my FM 42 campaign. With more than 50k prestige and mostly 4* overstrength units, I was able to play with best units only (Tigers, StugG, Me 410, etc...). The game was a piece of cake with something like 15+ Tiger tanks. I even crossed the Donets and cleared the whole map.

After this game, I decided to restart a game with a preset core, FM level, and the difference is impressive. There are a lot a really poor units in the preset core. It tooked me quite a lot of time to make some necessary upgrades during the game, mainly upgrading all the tanks to tigers during the game, excepting the PzIVGs, PzIIINs and KV1C, upgrading all AT to StugIIIG, Me110 to Me410, Ju87s to D version, a Me190 to FW190 and an Inf43 to Pionners. I disbanded also three units (both recons and a 1Str tank) to buy much needed artillery (3xWurfrahmen 40).

At the beginning, the South East counter-attack from the Russian was difficult to stop, and keeping the Russian at bay near the Donets was really the most difficult part. With the newly bought artillery, assaulting Kharkov was easier. At one time, I started also to use the "chess" mode, after a Tiger tank had a 1 kill loss attacking infantry in open ground. In the end, I also went across the Donets, and was able to nearly capture every city, excepting Valuyki, finishing with 1500 prestige. DV at turn 20, but I could have finished at turn 17.

Having played this scenario just before with my imported core helped me a lot, As I even remembered more or less when new planes will arrive and where were located enemy units (thus keeping all my Tiger tanks near the Donets bridges).
Playing with the preset core is really interesting, and make the game really hard. I even had to use "normal" replacement, as prestige was really decreasing too fast, what I never did in the standard campaign. It must be noted that 1* units (preset core, FM) are not really über-killer units...

Nice map.
I would not play it in Manstein with preset core...

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:58 am
by produit
Just a small question, the Victory Conditions states for MV, capture 7 objectives. What does that mean ? We have to capture all the objectives, but we can loose our three objectives ? Or does it mean that we just have to capture 4 objectives and keep control on our 3 ? In this case, would it not be better to state "control 7 objectives at the end of the game", and not "capture at least 7 objectives"

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:36 pm
by Kerensky
It was considered, but using the word 'game' really didn't feel right. We'll see about other alternatives in the future though.

Re: Kharkov 43 "V2"

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:10 pm
by produit
Kerensky wrote:It was considered, but using the word 'game' really didn't feel right. We'll see about other alternatives in the future though.
The problem for me is more about the word "capture" vs "control" than about the word "game", I think.