Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

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Zhivago
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Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Zhivago » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:31 pm

One thing I have found to be largely the case in DLC 42 and DLC 43 is that if I have a choice between purchasing a tank or purchasing an anti-tank vehicle, the tank always seems to have better stats when all things are considered. I would like to incorporate more anti-tank units, like the StugIIIG, but the panzer IV's, panthers and tigers are more well rounded in most areas to this point in the war. As such, I currently have no anti-tank units in my core (except for an 88 AA gun that I have had since DLC 39). I'm looking forward to the jadgpanther unit though.

deducter
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by deducter » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Zhivago wrote:One thing I have found to be largely the case in DLC 42 and DLC 43 is that if I have a choice between purchasing a tank or purchasing an anti-tank vehicle, the tank always seems to have better stats when all things are considered. I would like to incorporate more anti-tank units, like the StugIIIG, but the panzer IV's, panthers and tigers are more well rounded in most areas to this point in the war. As such, I currently have no anti-tank units in my core (except for an 88 AA gun that I have had since DLC 39). I'm looking forward to the jadgpanther unit though.
From an efficiency standpoint the Panther and Tiger are vastly superior to the StuG IIIG. However, I use the StuG IIIG a lot, I think they are better than PzIV. They are cheap and very good against the hordes of T34s.

There really isn't anyway to reconcile a Tiger-heavy core with one that is focused more on medium AFVs. If you balance content around the former then the latter units are useless, while if you balance content around the latter (which seems to be the case currently) then the former is too easy.

Historically the Germans fielded very few Tigers (1,000 total) but a lot of StuG IIIG (~10,000).

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by ivanov » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:17 pm

I love the Stug's IIIG. Of course the Tigers and Panthers are better in every aspect, but the humble Stug is a great, cheap alternative, if you cannot afford the best available tanks ( or if you want to create more diverse and more historically acurate core ). The Elefants from the other hand, are turnded here in to a formidable super weapon - I think they are just missing a feature that would allow them to transform into kind of Panzer-Stuka and to attack the poor Soviets from the air :shock: If it comes to the Nashorns - despite their enormous punch, I find them somewhat to vulnerable to the enemy fire ( that's the way it should be ) and I prefer the Stugs!
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Zhivago
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Zhivago » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 pm

ivanov wrote:I love the Stug's IIIG. Of course the Tigers and Panthers are better in every aspect, but the humble Stug is a great, cheap alternative, if you cannot afford the best available tanks ( or if you want to create more diverse and more historically acurate core ). The Elefants from the other hand, are turnded here in to a formidable super weapon - I think they are just missing a feature that would allow them to transform into kind of Panzer-Stuka and to attack the poor Soviets from the air :shock: If it comes to the Nashorns - despite their enormous punch, I find them somewhat to vulnerable to the enemy fire ( that's the way it should be ) and I prefer the Stugs!
The Elephants pack a punch, but they are so darn slow, and in the vast Russian steppes of DLC 43, just getting them to where the action is takes half the game it seems. I concur with your assessment on the Nashorn. They seem to be made of paper mache when it comes time to its close defense value.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by monkspider » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:33 pm

I have three STuGs and a Marder in my core and they seem to serve me well. I would probably use even more if I didn't' have a lot of high quality captured Soviet equipment. They do seem to be more cost effective than the panzers.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Kerensky » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:31 am

The single most common unit I have is the StuGIIIG. I think I use 5 or 6 of them, but I treat them like recon cars. They are always forming the spearhead on my formations which puts them directly in the line of fire of AI counter attack. That's okay though, because they're tough, can do decent damage when attacked, and very cheap to refit or even flat out replace. They tend to have a very high attrition rate when I play, as they are constantly getting beat up and rarely have more than 100 experience.

Zhivago
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Zhivago » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:30 am

Kerensky wrote:The single most common unit I have is the StuGIIIG. I think I use 5 or 6 of them, but I treat them like recon cars. They are always forming the spearhead on my formations which puts them directly in the line of fire of AI counter attack. That's okay though, because they're tough, can do decent damage when attacked, and very cheap to refit or even flat out replace. They tend to have a very high attrition rate when I play, as they are constantly getting beat up and rarely have more than 100 experience.
I am starting to think that more of the cheaper AT units may be the way to go instead of the high-end armor. There simply is not enough prestige to go around to repair the expensive Tiger and Panther units in DLC 43, especially in the middle scenarios when your core has taken a substantial beating and just about every unit needs repairs.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:01 pm

I use at least 3 mobile AT systems and the 88 for AA and AT. I still wish lower caliber AA could go direct fire.

On another note, have the game makers thought about limiting AA so that lower caliber weapons cannot hit strategic bombers?

Elkarlo
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Elkarlo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:09 am

What about the nashorn? Seems to have odd stats, low defense but more initiative.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by goose_2 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:34 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:09 am
What about the nashorn? Seems to have odd stats, low defense but more initiative.
The Nashorn is meant to be a vulnerable yet effective stop gap in your at ranks...since it is open top the men who man it are vulnerable, but it's gun makes it have a higher initiative than other lower caliber guns

And yes I use AT's in and after 43, they key is to start early building up the barely effective guns so that you have experienced guns to field in the years when the AT's can really help you on the battlefield
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by Elkarlo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:43 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:34 pm
Elkarlo wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:09 am
What about the nashorn? Seems to have odd stats, low defense but more initiative.
The Nashorn is meant to be a vulnerable yet effective stop gap in your at ranks...since it is open top the men who man it are vulnerable, but it's gun makes it have a higher initiative than other lower caliber guns

And yes I use AT's in and after 43, they key is to start early building up the barely effective guns so that you have experienced guns to field in the years when the AT's can really help you on the battlefield
Just finished 43 east. Was really hars, even in colonel.
I slowly upgraded all my tanks to tigers, save a few PZIVs. Found by Kiev, the PZIVs are no longer suitable for front line action.
I had two Stugs and one Elefant. Stugs are nice, cheap and can take and dish out decent punishment. The Elefant is great against tanks, but infantry chip away at it. So it Def is vulnerable.
Never did use a nashorn. How did you find it? Was it good for attack but at at defense or anything?

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by goose_2 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:00 pm

I have not really used the Nashorn...I may use it in my new Super Hard playthrough based on it's lower cost...

The key to maximizing damage and minimizing your own damage is artillery...back up your units with artillery cover, and use artillery first for suppression first and attack second

on Colonel you should be able to build up prestige and experience rather quickly...
How much prestige do you currently have
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loganfive
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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by loganfive » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:32 pm

I like the StuG IIIG and (later) the JagdPanzer IV. If you can get them up to 4 stars they are extremely valuable bang-for-the-buck units that can help you deal with Soviet armour while managing the cap. As others have noted, you can't use them as tanks. Because of the -3 Initiative penalty when attacking, you generally need to suppress your target with artillery first, unless it's something like a recon, a SPAAG or transport vehicle. Also, they are extremely vulnerable to infantry (even inexperienced conscripts) in close terrain.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by captainjack » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:00 am

I sometimes use 1 or 2 Stugs (the 3G is very good) but often wait for the Elefant - generally don't use the Jagdpanther.

You get best results if you remember to train up a couple of units early on - in Poland you can often get a Pak36 up to 2 stars without too much trouble, and the 47mm SPAT in 1940 is OK if you remember to use it like an AT gun rather than a tank. The towed 36 can also be converted to a 50mm PaK once that becomes available. It doesn't stay competiitive for long, but can mangle early T34s if backed by decent artillery which often allows you to get it to 3*. Converting a 2* unit makes the Stug or Elefant a lot more competitive and a 3* Elefant can make a major difference straight away.

I tried towed AT for a while, but the feeble HA for the 75mm PaK (only 1HA more than the 50, which is highly questionable) in combination with the cost of transports makes them unattractive. I have tried Marders a few times but the unhelpful upgrade paths mean that they aren't cost effective and as far as I can tell, tanks are good enough at the time Marders would otherwise be an effective choice. The Jagdtiger is another oddity. It ought to trade off very good hitting power and armour for terrible speed, low fuel, low ammo and high cost but its 128mm gun that should punch a hole through anything has lower HA than the late war 88. As I understand it, the close and medium range performance was more or less the same as the 88 but it stayed effective to a much longer range, so while HA shouldn't be a lot higher it shouldn't be less, so unfortunately what should be an interesting option is not really worth considering when using the standard equipment file.

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Re: Anyone using much anti-tank equipment in DLC 43?

Post by loganfive » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 pm

I am not a big fan of the Elefant, JagdPanther or JagdTiger. Mostly because their 600+ purchase cost means that they will not help at all with the soft cap, and their impressive HA and GD values are largely offset by the initiative penalty when attacking. The JagdTiger and Elefant have a movement of only 4.

Which is not to say that they can't be useful. For example, if you get to Prokhorovka and find that you need a few more AFVs, buying some Elefants is not a terrible plan. You can disband them after the battle to get your prestige back.

The StuG IV makes a very good SP with its low cost, Range of 2 and HA of 10. However, it's not available until 1944, and if you want a StuG IV with experience you have to upgrade an existing AT unit. Which is a problem when you are playing on Field Marshall, where acquiring experience stars for your AT units is a huge challenge.

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