DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Open beta forum.

Moderators: Slitherine Core, The Lordz, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators

Post Reply
charonjr
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:01 pm

DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by charonjr » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:22 pm

Korsun Pocket - Manstein - imported core (very heavy core)

Starting with 36.3k prestige after elite reinforcements and buying a new StuG IV.

With the low number of deployable units and having not played this map before I stayed put/defend Novaya Greblya at first. After having a rough idea where the AI is heading I started my first counterattack around Shpola at turn 3.

At turn 4 I stared a cautious attack towards Medvyn - and ran right into a bunch of tanks including an IS-1.

Gaining air superiority was fairly easy with 5 Fw 190A, 3 Me 410a and 2 AAA/SPAA.

Around turn 7/8 my airfields were nearly overrun, but in the end I was able to stop the Soviet advance. Had to relocate a bunch of units who were sitting around doing nothing due to me having no idea where/when to expect the next attack (only rough ideas about the direction from the briefing).

Novomyrhorod was taken at turn 11.

And I finished the scenario earlier than I wanted, I was under the impression that I would have to land the supplies at the airfield in order to finish, but obviously just moving the transport on top of the airfield is enough. And after rereading the briefing it is actually fairly clear that just escorting them there is enough, but maybe it should explicitly say something about that it is actually not neccessary to drop the supplies.

DV at 11/20 - 39.6k prestige after the scenario award, 37.1k after elite reinforcements.

Overall a nice scenario and tough as hell on Manstein even with a very strong imported core. A lot of this is due to not knowing the map, I dare to say that this one will be a lot easier the second time around.

The alternative method of winning was fairly easy to achieve, maybe even a bit too easy.

Zhivago
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:15 pm

Korsun Pocket

Post by Zhivago » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:01 am

Frozen free-for all slug-fest. I played FM level with an imported core. Using my 3 FW 190's and 4 ME410's, I was able to wipe out all Russian air attacks. I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying this, but I think that there should be more (and more frequent) Russian air force attacks, especially because the main objective of this scenario for the Germans is to escort the cargo planes. It was not much of a challenge to get the transports to their destinations, even playing on Field Marshall. I got a DV on turn 11/20.

I would recommend more of a Russian attack from the east toward the airfield objectives. Knowing where the Russians attack from now, I would not even bother putting anything except a light guard north and east of the objective area. I would just stick all of my units in the west and south.

However, it was a fun scenario to play and it is a sobering feeling to know that the Germans are outnumbered and outgunned now and it is going to get worse. :cry:

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: Korsun Pocket

Post by monkspider » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:51 am

One possible bug I have noticed when playing this one is that, even as a defensive scenario, we don't get the slow drip of prestige every turn, which I fear will have harrowing consequences. Is this by design?

-Edit nevermind, you get prestige, it is just not every turn. Interesting.

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: Korsun Pocket

Post by monkspider » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:25 am

Korsun Pocket
Imported Core, General difficulty
DV on turn 11
Starting prestige 2500
After overstrengh 29
Ending prestige 225
Losses: 1x Cavalry and 1x Hummel

The Korsun/Cherkassy pocket is a famous battle amongst wargamers and a great choice for an opener. First of all, I am delighted that the core size reduced. 1943 was a bit ponderous due to the huge core size, though realistic as it was in reflecting historical realities.

The bad news? My core is still beat to hell after the battles of 1943. I wondered briefly if just starting a new core actually might be easier, but surrender to the Bolshevik is unacceptable. We will fight on and find a way. Though even with the reduced core I only had one spare unit left over in my reserve and my fairly medicore with only two Tigers and two Panthers. Moreover, my core has been substantially drained of quality infantry units. I still have a handful, but nowhere near what I would like. My artillery force is merely a shell of what it once was as well.

The good news? I got an SS Panzer III right off the bat in this one. My SS units are now substantial enough to hold down entire fronts on their own. I have four SS Panzers, including two 15 strength Tigers, and two 15 strength infantry units.

I remember from the historical Korsun battle that I will be hit from east and west both so I tried to deploy accordingly. One thing I would say for historical purposes is that the Soviet attack started in the east and was stronger in the east. In the game, the attacks seem to come simultaneously and with comparable strength. If I were to edit this battle, i would give the Soviet troops in the east a stronger force but give the Germans a few fortifications. Historically the Germans had some modest defenses but even these were pretty quickly overrun by the Soviet attack.

I managed to pull a DV on turn 11. I found this to be too easy. I lost two supply planes on the first turn, I am not sure if it was possible to save them or not, i wasn't paying much attention to them during the deploy phase, but even with losing these two off the bat, it seemed fairly trivial to pull out the DV. I would perhaps reduce the total number of supply planes or perhaps spread out their appearance a bit more.

It would have been nice if there could have been some element of the "hell's gate" breakout, where Manstein managed to escaple the noose and prevent the Stalingrad on the Dnieper scenario that Stalin wanted.

-Edit Welp, you keep making me eat my words. The very next scenario lets us try to breakout. :)

Mountaineer
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 232 8Rad
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Korsun Pocket

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:40 am

That was a kick in the junk. You start out fighting and it is tough to see your 1st 2 transports shot out of the sky.

Imported my core and was rewarded an elite unit. I cashed that one in for more prestige to increase the strength of my core and I was glad I did. One fight at a time, you were smart to tell us watch west and SE. I appreciate the difficulty but I have to disagree with the above comments is that it is too easy. If you did increase the pressure from the east, you need a few bunkers and defensive units as monkspider points out.

I did restart. The first game I tried a balanced force. On the 2d, I went armor and arty only with lots of air support and just a few 88 AA. Leave the infantry home this time.

I also finished in 11 turns, so perhaps it could be a bit harder.

On to the breakout (next scenario). First thing I notice is that the counter attack on the south side of thee river is about 2 turns early. It quickly overwhelmed the light forces there as it started on turn 1. It took me 3 turns to break through and now I have to fight through those forces. If they were meant to attack my flank after I got through the first line of AT weapons then they need to hold back.

I also think it would be great if the 88mm AA weapon could go direct fire after it moves as long as it does not mount up. Right now, it cannot.

produit
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by produit » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:30 pm

Playing with preset core, FM.
The starting core is not so good. Especially when starting in FM. The main problem is that most unit start with only 1 star of experience. There is sufficient prestige to upgrade the main units to Panther/Elefant/FW190, but with only one star, they are not so good to attack IS1, KV85 or ISU122.
If I compare it with the preset core from 43 DLC that I played through the 43 DLC, the difference is huge. Nearly all tank, anti-tank and fighter units would have 3 stars of exp. Would it be possible that starting a FM game does not reduce the experience of the units ?

On the bright side, there was enough prestige to upgrade most units and use elite replacement.

Perhaps a side note, when you upgrade a unit which is more overstrengthened than its exp (ex. a unit with a strength of 13 and exp of 100), the additional strength is lost during upgrade. It is quite weird.

I finished the first scenario capturing every victory hex, on turn 20. I was able to escort 5 transports to the airfields, but at first, what was my surprise when I was not able to achieve a DV. The problem is that I moved with my "supply units", to attack accross the Dnieper. As a result, the "supply units" were not on the airfields at the end of the game. Perhaps, stating in the briefing that "supply units" have to stay on the airfields would be great.

Finally, the map is quite easy with upgraded units, even if destroying all the armored attacks keeps a lot of tension. I liked the map. Escorting transports was perhaps too easy. Maintaining air supremacy is really easy. Moreover, making a breakthrough on the south-west is also really easy. As soon as you are able to clear the AA units there, nothing poses you problem with the transports.

awaltering
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:18 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by awaltering » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:56 pm

Thanks for choosing me as betatester again. as a casual gamer i started as oberst with the starting core without importing my old core units. i only upgraded one PAK to elefant. to be honest, at least on the oberst level the game was not hard to win (dv). i had enough airpower to wipe out the russian airforce every time it shows up in about one or max two rounds. i didn´t even escort the JU 52 to the designed airfields without losing a transporter. the only danger was the russian flak, but it would only kill a few of my airtransports - at least one unit survived. lost only one of my core units through the hole battle. btw without any saving and reloading, but that goes without saying.
the additional missions are a nice variation to the normal aim hold this objecitve or conquer that objective. the quick changing of the battle´s focus with attacks from west and east was a challange but managable without to big frustration. nice start.
Last edited by awaltering on Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by monkspider » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:51 pm

(Moving feedback to official thread)

Korsun Pocket
Imported Core, General difficulty
DV on turn 11
Starting prestige 2500
After overstrengh 29
Ending prestige 225
Losses: 1x Cavalry and 1x Hummel

The Korsun/Cherkassy pocket is a famous battle amongst wargamers and a great choice for an opener. First of all, I am delighted that the core size reduced. 1943 was a bit ponderous due to the huge core size, though realistic as it was in reflecting historical realities.

The bad news? My core is still beat to hell after the battles of 1943. I wondered briefly if just starting a new core actually might be easier, but surrender to the Bolshevik is unacceptable. We will fight on and find a way. Though even with the reduced core I only had one spare unit left over in my reserve and my fairly medicore with only two Tigers and two Panthers. Moreover, my core has been substantially drained of quality infantry units. I still have a handful, but nowhere near what I would like. My artillery force is merely a shell of what it once was as well.

The good news? I got an SS Panzer III right off the bat in this one. My SS units are now substantial enough to hold down entire fronts on their own. I have four SS Panzers, including two 15 strength Tigers, and two 15 strength infantry units.

I remember from the historical Korsun battle that I will be hit from east and west both so I tried to deploy accordingly. One thing I would say for historical purposes is that the Soviet attack started in the east and was stronger in the east. In the game, the attacks seem to come simultaneously and with comparable strength. If I were to edit this battle, i would give the Soviet troops in the east a stronger force but give the Germans a few fortifications. Historically the Germans had some modest defenses but even these were pretty quickly overrun by the Soviet attack.

I managed to pull a DV on turn 11. I found this to be too easy. I lost two supply planes on the first turn, I am not sure if it was possible to save them or not, i wasn't paying much attention to them during the deploy phase, but even with losing these two off the bat, it seemed fairly trivial to pull out the DV. I would perhaps reduce the total number of supply planes or perhaps spread out their appearance a bit more.

It would have been nice if there could have been some element of the "hell's gate" breakout, where Manstein managed to escaple the noose and prevent the Stalingrad on the Dnieper scenario that Stalin wanted.

-Edit Welp, you keep making me eat my words. The very next scenario lets us try to breakout. :)

pickle
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:45 am

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by pickle » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:08 pm

I started this one on the pre-set core. I find scenarios like this one quite enjoyable as I switch units from one hot spot to another. Got a DV on turn 12 after losing a Nashhorn and one other unit I can't recall at the moment. The IS's are rather difficult to defeat but with the help of Stuka's, they are manageable. I imagine things will only get more difficult as air support becomes less reliable. Nice start.

charonjr
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:01 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by charonjr » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:18 pm

Rommel - pre-build core

Knowing the map does make a fairly big difference as suspected.

DV at 15/20 - mostly due to the cities left in Soviet hands spamming ISs which I could not afford to engage for very long. 4.6k prestige in the end, but potentially a lot will be used for repairs. In the end I had pulled 6 of my units behind my own lines because even a bomber attack could have killed them.

This one is getting harder the longer one plays, mainly due to still more waves and the respawn of heavy Soviet tanks.

I dare to say that each turn I would have kept playing beyond 15 would have not been worth the kills/XP/prestige (cities) I gained. Overall good starting scenario with "adjustable" difficulty.

grabbysnatch
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:04 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by grabbysnatch » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:23 pm

just started this scenario and imported my core units from 43. I lost most of my transports on the first turn before i could even move!. Strong Russsian forces encountered including IS-1. will report more as i continue

billmv44
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: California

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by billmv44 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Imported core from Prior beta's (starting in 1942). General level. As others have noted, the initial 2 supply carriers were lost. With Ivan moving first and no ability to deploy a fighter next to them, they had no chance. The AI is very aggressive in finishing off damaged units. DV on 12/20 with not too much difficulty. I paid close attention to the briefing and deployed my forces accordingly. This was very helpful in fending off the initial attacks. The scenario ended as soon as my 4th supply plane reached the sector A airfield. This was a bit disappointing since a big battle was shaping up in the northwest area of the map.
Panzer Corps Beta Tester
Allied Corps Beta Tester

Longasc
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by Longasc » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:28 pm

Field Marshal
Default core and starting prestige (6000)

General observations:
- The StuG IV seems odd with it's 2 range artillery mode. I had to switch it to AT by now and couldn't test it much so far.
- NICE: Reduced core size. There are still enough extra aux units to move and its a bit a relief that not every unit that dies is a core unit.

Oh my I don't find the "Suddenly Commies, everywhere" meme pic... they are really coming from the directions mentioned in the briefing. :o

@monkspider: Yeah I think starting with the default core would be easier. You have only 2500 vs the default 6000 Prestige, but better core units ofc. Looking forward to read your experiences. Maybe low prestige isn't as dangerous as in 1943 as the deployed core unit number is lower, less units fighting also means less strength point losses to repair/replace.

RESULT:
Decisive Victory 11/20, 6595 Prestige
I lost several core units, bought 1 or even 2 Panther A as replacements. As you see I died to the point of having some slots free to buy new troops.

But all in all it was a nice scenario. The Russian Airforce was weaker this time than I got used to, which allowed me to use the three Stukas of the default core to great effect.
The end of the scenario caught me by surprise -> the transport was over the airfield, yet not yet unloaded! But the scenario ended in victory nevertheless.
(I think some Prestige milking is possible here)

All in all a very nice scenario and good begin of this campaign. Very well balanced, not too easy and not too hard either.
What I especially liked was the very well written briefing and the transport objective that reminded me of the the final 1942 scenario, Demansk IIRC.

Thumbs up! :D
P.S. the StuG IV won't see further testing, it got destroyed already. :oops:

nikivdd
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 4165
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by nikivdd » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:36 pm

FM
I imported my core from DLC43 beta1.


I start this scenario with 4 Tiger I tanks, several Pz IVH, StuGIIIG, PzIIIN and a Panther. Backupped by self-propelled artillery. I deployed my entire air force. The few slots left i filled with infantry.
This is not a difficult mission in which i managed to stop the russians at several points. I welcomed the couple of IS-1 tanks who were taken out quickly by a consequent attack by 1 lvl bomber and 2 tanks.
I didn't lose any units although i almost lost a PzIIIN to that KV-85 and a StuGIIIG to a ISU-152. It is also a shooting gallery...the hunt for the conscripts. Overall an ok opener but by reading the briefing i imagined it would be more difficult.
I don't understand the preplaced T-34's which are just obsolete. I'd prefer some made in Germany tanks instead. Also i have welcomed the markers but like with this scenario, when a unit is placed on a marker, you cannot see it. I actually moved the AA from the airfield to check if there is a marker or an easter bunny there.

DV 11/20 , 2714PP.
https://www.facebook.com/NikivddPanzerCorps/
https://www.youtube.com/user/Nikivdd1/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=dd

El_Condoro
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 2095
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:32 am

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by El_Condoro » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:56 am

Colonel (I only want to see how the scenarios play out, not get beaten to a pulp! :) ) and the preset core. DV 11/20. ~6500 prestige at the end
I think if I had played defensively it would have been a walkover, but I had to go on the offensive in the south-east, taking a couple of objectives but losing 2x Pz III and 2x Pz IV in the process. Still had enough prestige to upgrade all remaining tanks to Panthers and Tigers at the end. As I said, I'm interested in how the scenarios play out, not having a hard time of it. The AI never once attacked the supply transports even though I left them undefended to see what would happen. I also didn't bother escorting my Stukas and only got attacked once or twice - the Russian AF really got shot down very easily (not that I will try that again, just to be on the safe side).
I think others have mentioned that a lot of Russian stuff sat around in the FoW and would only have been a problem if I had tried a full offensive. Actually, looking at the map, I think a full offensive would be a very bad idea. Has anyone done it successfully - take all objectives?
Anyway, nice start to the campaign...

tmgiles1
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:23 pm

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by tmgiles1 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:26 pm

Lt. level, standard core. This was a neat game. I like the different objectives as it gives an added sense of realism. I’m looking forward to breaking out to sector C in the next scenario. The shifting counter attacks were good too. I only lost one Stuka, but came close several times to losing others. The JS-1’s were tough, but manageable with the Stukas. I escorted and didn't lose any transports. I would say it was easily winnable at this level. I think I had 6000 prestige minus upgrades and DV in about 11.

hmshood
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:52 pm
Location: Hayward, California

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by hmshood » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:25 am

I WAS TOLD we would be pulled back from the front for a refit & rest...they promised...they said would extend the Oktoberfest for us...beer & pretzels for all...

but...nooo...we are sent back to the front....off we go...and it's figgin' cold....AND for some bloody reason I'm handed a note that says "you be in a pocket dude"

I don't know what a "pocket is..."...never heard the term...wait....another note from Berlin...it says "Wikipedia "pocket = surrounded"...

3rd note arrives....can't be worse....."YOU CANNOT deploy mo folks cause we be runnin' outta gas/supplies/ammo dude"

4th note...."expect heavy air & tank attacks from....well...EVERYWHERE".....
5th note...."It's snowing"
last note....a personnel one from our fearless leader....."no retreat".....

wish us luck?

hmshood
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:52 pm
Location: Hayward, California

Re: DLC '44 #1: Korsun Pocket

Post by hmshood » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:55 am

Spent the weekend with this nail biter...watched my "pocket" get smaller and smaller..although it made defense easier...but man it wuz harrowing...Soviet mobile forces rolled over some dudes out in the open and as we did one of those strategic retreats...next scenario should be very interesting considering the damage and amount of prestige left...kudos's to the folks who designed this one...VERY realistic...VERY challenging....

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps Open Beta”