DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Open beta forum.

Moderators: Slitherine Core, The Lordz, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design

Post Reply
VPaulus
Slitherine
Slitherine
Posts: 8133
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:33 pm
Location: Portugal

DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by VPaulus » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:45 pm

Please post here your comments about this scenario.

Mountaineer
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Sergeant - Panzer IIC
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:53 pm

I have not gotten to this scenario yet, but I keep thinking about it. I visited the Warsaw uprising museum in Warsaw and the actions of the Polish people were heroic and tragic. I hope when I get to this one that it somehow honors them. I also hope you replicate the Soviet duplicious behavior. In 1944 the Soviets promised to help and their approach to the city caused the Germans to start pulling back. However, when the partisans (and really the whole city) rebelled and started attacking the Germans, the Soviets stopped and did not cross the river for 4 months. The Germans then held on and systematically leveled the city. The Americans and British flew supply runs to the partisans in the city. The city was completely destroyed. This is one I actually wish you could change the historical mission and give the German commander the option to defend west of the city and abandon an attempt to retain it.

produit
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by produit » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:10 pm

FM, preset core, chess mode
DV at turn 22/22 (I took me that time to kill all Russian units), but could have finished at turn 15.
Ending prestige 20507.

From the map, I knew that I had to use a lot of infantry and artillery. Thus I bought 2 more Wurfrahmen, upgrade all my infantry to Pioneers and Grenadiers (7 in total) and bought also a Bridge engineer to cross the river. With careful planning, advancing in the city, always supported by artillery is not so hard. It is a bit like Stalingrad or Moscow, but much smaller, with less open areas and less enemy tanks.

From the beginning, I sent directly two task forces (mostly Tigers II and Jagdpanthers, with some StuG IV for support) on the east bank, one north, one south, to tackle the Russian. The map is straightforward, I had some fear that the Russian would move in direction of the city, as soon as most of the Poles were killed, but they remains seated.

As the Poles have no artillery at all, this is really easy. It is not the tanks, which will cause some troubles. In the city, they are not really efficient, and if they get out of it, Tigers II kill them easily. On one side, I can understand that to fit with history, giving no artillery to the poles has a meaning. On the other side, they have an 4 stars Panther, thus... Giving them artillery would make the attack more difficult.

Nice map, as it is really changing from the other ones. A city attack is always nice (if we don't think too much to what happened really at that time)...

monkspider
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by monkspider » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Good post Mountaineer, I also found this scenario to be of special note. I think it's inclusion is a bold decision, and another example of how Panzer Corps (and especially the grand campaign) can invoke complex emotions beyond mere strategic thinking. I commented in an earlier thread about how the 1944 campaign invokes a feeling of absolute futility, and I think that is beautiful and profound. But I think this battle has the potential to be an interesting commentary on morality in war games. I had no problems capturing Moscow or Leningrad, and intellectually, I realize that this probably would have had horrifying implications, even if the troops I command are completely honorable, and representative of the chivalrous Prussian military tradition. But yet, when faced with doing battle with the Polish resistance, I don't think I could bring myself to actually fight them, even in this highly abstracted form. This should be a very interesting scenario, I look forward to it.

Kerensky
Content Designer
Content Designer
Posts: 7072
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Kerensky » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:03 pm

Well we used up our one bonus/fictional scenario credit already for DLC 1944 with the Poltava scenario. Technically that scenario has a historical foundation (look up Operation Frantic and you can read about it), but we stretched it a little bit to make an fun and interesting scenario.

For Warsaw, we went pure history, even down to the names of some Polish units and locations inside of Warsaw. Even put in triggers to halt the Soviet advance, and threw in a few American aircraft to help out the beleaguered Poles too. This scenario, historical implications aside, made a great addition to the campaign because not only of the Urban type combat, which has proven pretty popular in the past, but also because it gives an opportunity to fight a non-Soviet force, something people have been doing for quite a while in the last few DLC campaigns. ;)

We made sure to remove any offending text around the mission though, nothing about massacring or leveling the city. The briefing and outro are purely written to keep objectives and the battle situation in mind.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by ivanov » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:30 am

This scenario is the very reason I decided not to participate in this beta. Playing some fictional scenarios like capturing Mosow or Leningrad is fine for me, because they would essentially represent encounters between the two military equal belligerents. The Panzer Corps so far is very much German-orientated game, so by definition it puts the players on the "wrong side" of the barricade. But as long as the DLC's scenarios represent the important, more-less-historical battles, it allows to focus on purely military aspects of the war. In this way, the trick can be done with a relatively clear consciousness. But a scenario simulating a suppression of the Warsaw Uprising is just not acceptable for me. The atrocities committed by the SS units ( and not only the SS ) during the Warsaw Uprising, surpassed in it's scale anything that happened on the Eastern Front during the WWII. For example the "Wola massacre" was the biggest single massacre of the civilian population during the WWII, when just in few days more that 40 000 people were killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wola_massacre

Even the Luftwaffe was free to join and there are well known examples of the churches, filled with people, bombed by the Stukas. During the whole uprising, more than 200 000 civilians were killed in just about two months of time. Is it even possible to understand that scale by any western standards? And it all happened in an European capital, known for it's vibrant culture and history. At the same time the Allies were entering Paris after it's own, popular uprising.

In purely military terms it was a one-sided contest. There were between 20 000 - 40 000 insurgents but only a small procentage of them had ANY type of weapon like a homemade pistol or a bottle filled with the gasoline. All German accounts confirm that the urban fighting was fierce but it's outcome was never in any doubt as long as the Soviets refused to help the insurgents ( it is another question if they really could and should help the ardently anti-communist Polish Home Army ).

In regards to the DLC 44 and Warsaw, I was hoping, that the campaign would feature the Battle of Radzymin when the German armoured units ( among them the famous Herman Goering and 5th SS Wiking panzer divisions ) managed to achieve one of the last operational victories against the big soviet armour formation ( 2nd Guards Tank Army ). This potential scenario could feature a historical, big tank battle and have the uprising somewhere in the background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Radzymin_(1944)

As a Pole I have no problem with scenarios that simulate the Battle of Warsaw in 1939 ( however they are incorrect historically because the Wehrmacht didn't manage to capture the city - it surrendered in face of the civilian casualties caused by the air raids ). But a scenario where the main objective is to fight the Polish insugrent forces, just "for change" or to get some prestige, is simply unacceptable for me. I don't think that any game so far has featured the supression of the Warsaw Uprising and I think that the PC has a dubious honour of doing it first. I don't want to sound overly dramatic but I think that also the historic game makers, have some moral responsibility and in this case their main guilt could result in the desentization to the thruth and suffering.

Miasto Ruin ( City of Ruins ). An exact computer model of Warsaw after the uprising, based on the aerial photos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRZs1Mt ... re=related

Ps. I guess that this in not a typical feedback for the beta testing, but you may take it into the account aswell, because this scenario may cause some more, negative reactions just like mine.
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

monkspider
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by monkspider » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:09 am

I am just an American and don't have the same emotional connection to the events of the Warsaw uprising as someone of Polish descent such as Ivanov , and I am glad that he was able to share his perspective. However, I think the inclusion of this battle is a courageous move cause it creates a kind of moral introspection that is pretty much unheard of in war games.

I find the idea of fighting the Polish resistance to be distasteful, and my plan for the battle is to see if I can win without killing any of the Polish units, if not, I may just accept a loss. I think it is fascinating that Panzer Corps can allow the player to think about things that are not just what unit is the most powerful or cost-effective. It puts the player in a situation where he is forced to make a difficult moral decision. Do you fight the resistance, regardless of the well-known historical atrocities? Or do you refuse, and possibly accept a defeat and all of the consequences that would follow (loss of prestige and possibly being unable to continue in the campaign)?

It also asks you to think about moral questions such as why do I find fighting the Polish resistance to be unsettling, but have no problems fighting hordes of Soviet conscripts? I think it is fascinating, and I do applaud Kerensky and company for including it. It adds some definite gravitas to the campaign.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by ivanov » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:24 am

monkspider wrote: I find the idea of fighting the Polish resistance to be distasteful, and my plan for the battle is to see if I can win without killing any of the Polish units, if not, I may just accept a loss.
Wow, this is a truly impressive attitude...
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

produit
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by produit » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:49 am

I understand these reaction, but I think we have to keep in mind that it remains a game.
What impresses me is this reaction about Warsaw. Like said monkspider, there were no complains about taking Stalingrad with nearly a million of deads (both sides with civilians) and a city completely destroyed. We had also a lot of "partisan uprising" in Russia that we had to takle until now, and when an army is sent to reduce a partisan uprising, it is rarely gentle. The question is why am I more touched by the Warsaw uprising than killing partisans...

In the end, we are playing a game about war, and war is not clean. Killing people, either civilians, partisans or soldiers is something I hope I will never have to do. I thus try to remain on the strategical level, and like said Kerensky, assaulting a city was a change on a gaming point of view.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by ivanov » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:44 pm

produit wrote:I understand these reaction, but I think we have to keep in mind that it remains a game.
What impresses me is this reaction about Warsaw. Like said monkspider, there were no complains about taking Stalingrad with nearly a million of deads (both sides with civilians) and a city completely destroyed. We had also a lot of "partisan uprising" in Russia that we had to takle until now, and when an army is sent to reduce a partisan uprising, it is rarely gentle. The question is why am I more touched by the Warsaw uprising than killing partisans...

In the end, we are playing a game about war, and war is not clean. Killing people, either civilians, partisans or soldiers is something I hope I will never have to do. I thus try to remain on the strategical level, and like said Kerensky, assaulting a city was a change on a gaming point of view.
I think that the problem with a game that features a suppression of the Warsaw Uprising, is that unlike the Battle of Warsaw 1939, Battle of Stalingrad or even the siege of Leningrad, it is impossible to see it as an equal contest between the two military beligerents. The uprising was mostly a one sided massacre of the defenceless civilian population, perpetuated with an exceptional ruthlesness and brutality. It was mostly lead and conducted by the SS units like for example Oskar Dirlewanger brigade ( comprised of convicted criminals ) or a Kaminski Brigade ( comprised of the Russian colaborators who's notorious brutality proved even too much for the SS ). Due to that, a scenario which makes the player to role play the actions of those units, seems to me utterly unacceptable. Just imagine in DLC 43' a short, pre-Kursk, special scenario, that would feature the pacification of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising ( that for the first time met a considerable resistance form the members of the Jewish community ). From a moral point of view, both scenarios featuring the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising or the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 would be exactly the same thing. The Second World War is a event that shaped the world, as we know it and some lines should simply never be crossed.

I guess it's too late to do anything about this scenario, but if it is going to form a part of the DLC 44', it should at least include a special historical note, that would explain some basic facts about the Uprising like the time frame, number of casualties, the Hitler's order to raze the city to the ground and the cynical innaction of the Red Army.

It would be great, if the scenario gave the players a possibility to refuse the participation in the suppression of the uprising and allow him to continue the campaign, with some small negative consequences. For example the Hungarian units refused to take part in the pacification and were disarmed and imprisoned by the Germans. That kind of choice would add a completely new dimension to the DLC 44'.

Lastly I have to say that I am really overwhelmed by the comments of the people like Monkspider. I didn't expect it and I think that I underestimated in this aspect my fellow forum members.
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

charonjr
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:01 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by charonjr » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:57 pm

I have to say that I am somewhat torn on this one too. Personally I see the same (if taking a close look at the results somewhat wrong) difference between crushing a largely civilian rebellion by military force (even or maybe because it still happens today) and fighting another military force with leads to civilian casualties as already mentioned above.

Personally I think I will try to take my objectives like the good commander I am supposed to be and protect them, but no longer actively attack inside the city as this point.

This is actually even a nice additional challenge since I will need troops inside the city that can not be used against the Soviets.

produit
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by produit » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:11 pm

charonjr wrote:Personally I think I will try to take my objectives like the good commander I am supposed to be and protect them, but no longer actively attack inside the city as this point.

This is actually even a nice additional challenge since I will need troops inside the city that can not be used against the Soviets.
I don't think that it will be really easy to follow this line, as the Russian do not attack and stand still, and as there are a lot of VH in the city.

But I understand the feeling.

nikivdd
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Panzer Corps Map Designer
Posts: 4182
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by nikivdd » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:28 pm

It is a bold move to add it to Panzer Corps and i try to understand.
Personally, I am going to endscn1 or 2 this one out of respect for my father-in-law who was taking part in the uprisal as a teenager.

Ivanov, ja dobrze rozumiem, nie jestes sam.

ivanov
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:57 am
Location: Spain

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by ivanov » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:37 pm

nikivdd wrote:Ivanov, ja dobrze rozumiem, nie jestes sam.
Dziekuje :D
Mickey Mouse

\m/ \m/

monkspider
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by monkspider » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:48 am

Warsaw Uprising
Ending prestige 1500
Losses 1x Wehrmacht Infantry and 1x Grenadier
DV on turn 18

Well, I made it to Warsaw. I had some major moral reservations about fighting the Polish resistance as noted earlier but I ended up deciding like I would be doing the beta-test a disservice if I didn't at least attempt the battle. When I am playing this scenario "for pleasure", I may just have my troops stand down and accept the loss.

Now with that out of the way, I will say this was an expertly-crafted bit of urban combat.I lost track of my exact prestige figures from before the battle, but I had enough to completely overstrength and also upgrade one of my last two KV-1s to a Panther. My losses were moderate on this one, I lost a couple inexperienced infantry units outright, but utilizing a strategy of caution and slow advance allowed me to marginalize the resistance while avoiding catastrophic casualties. The siege units were fun and quite helpful, but I did feel very guilty about using the massive cannons on historic Warsaw. (Though, interestingly I felt no such guilt the first time I conquered the city).

I liked that you included actual places within the city for objectives, I felt like this little touch was a bit of an homage to the brave resistance fighters and I like the other little touches like seeing American planes and the huge Soviet army that mysteriously stopped right outside the city.

One slightly humorous note, I STILL have my old Polish artillery that I captured way back in the 1939 campaign which I am still keeping around as a novelty, though at 15 strength it is a perfectly useful unit. It was kind of amusing to see it back in it's old stomping grounds.

I ended up geting my first decisive victory in a while. It was nice to get a pat on the head from Habermann again. So, overall, a wonderful and thought-provoking scenario, though it might not be a bad idea to make it an optional scenario for those who would have moral qualms about it.

billmv44
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: California

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by billmv44 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:34 am

Playing on General, imported core. Start Prestige 15240, ending 15370. I set the moral implications aside and decided the quickest way to reduce civilian casualties was to win quickly. I am very low on infantry at this point (only 5 units going into the scenario). So my plan was to use them sparingly and lead with Tiger IIs backed by artillery. This worked very well. I did lose on Para unit, but that was my own fault. The American air forces were pesky, but fairly easily dealt with. The Russian are not entirely quiet, they did attack one of my forts on the western side of the Vistula. The fort was lost, but the KV-85 paid the ultimate price. The Russian mobile AA units also popped in to shoot at my planes from time to time. DV on turn 15.

Good scenario - I liked the return to urban fighting. If only I had the Tiger IIs in Stalingrad!
Panzer Corps Beta Tester
Allied Corps Beta Tester

Yogol
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:02 pm

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Yogol » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:04 pm

ivanov wrote:For example the "Wola massacre" was the biggest single massacre of the civilian population during the WWII, when just in few days more that 40 000 people were killed.
Euh, no... the biggest single massacre of civililian population during WWII was Hiroshima.

The second biggest Nagasaki.

For the rest, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

hmshood
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:52 pm
Location: Hayward, California

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by hmshood » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:54 pm

I didn't like playing this scenario..for the reason's stated above. Tactically it was not nearly as difficult as others. When one play's it's easy to see or imagine the folks that lived in the City having a hard time fending off the veteran troops of the German Army. Every turn one plays one wonders if the Russians are going to advance. It would have a much different outcome.

I known they "outran their supply lines"...the American did to at one point.....but could they have sent SOMETHING?...

hmshood

best75
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by best75 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:44 am

This thread is one of the reasons I think the open beta forum should be kept well open for people to see.
I did not feel anything for this particular scenario due to my lack of knowledge of the warsaw uprising
Reading the stuff here changed my feelings on the scenario and made me chose the Warsaw Uprising as my event to research for a history assessment, now playing this scenario a 2nd time knowing the crimes committed I feel a bit uncomfortable and skipped this.

wargovichr
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:11 am

Re: DLC '44 #11: Warsaw Uprising

Post by wargovichr » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Yogol wrote:
ivanov wrote:For example the "Wola massacre" was the biggest single massacre of the civilian population during the WWII, when just in few days more that 40 000 people were killed.
Euh, no... the biggest single massacre of civililian population during WWII was Hiroshima.

The second biggest Nagasaki.

For the rest, I agree with pretty much everything you said.
One MILLION civilians died during the siege of Leningrad '41-44, and 300,000 at the "Rape of Nanking."

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps Open Beta”