Annoying AI cheat

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Chris10
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Annoying AI cheat

Post by Chris10 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:47 pm

I started Breivity in my campaign game and when I hit end turn a plane flew in from the upper left corner of the map and commited precision bombing on my arty mounted in a truck..I was like...WTF ?::I checked and the only brit unit was a Bren Carrier in 5 hexes distance (orange circle) which only has a 3 hex recon anyway (blue circle)...so how could this plane do direct bombing on the weakest and most expensive unit (arty mounted in truck) ?
Image

I restarted the scneario and moved a two artys only...end turn..again...plane flys in precision bombing on mounted arty in truck (red arrow)..
then 2nd plane came (green arrow) bombing other arty in truck which is ok as now it could see the tank...but how da heck the first bombing could take place ?
Image

Third attempt
Moving arty and tank...end turn..boom..precision bombing on arty (red arrow) then second plane on tank which is now in sight anyway
Image

Fourth and last attempt
Only moved a single arty piece and guess what ?..Plane comes from upper left corner of map and commences precision bombing on mounted arty without any recon or line of sight...WTF? :twisted: Image


I thought I have seen similar in Recconnaissance in Force but was unsure if I detected it correctly so I did not bother me further until now...while AI ground units are correctly affected by FOW it seems enemy planes do ignore it..a very unpleasant discovery if this is true...can others pls check too ?
Image

Razz1
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Razz1 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:58 pm

I get around this by having AA support or Fighter protecting them.

Assume the AI has recon planes and can see the weakest unit.
I believe the order of target is;
Mounted units, not protected
Art
Inf
AA
recon
tank

Unmounted units;

Art
Inf
AA
recon
tank

The planes in my campaigns are attacking my tank all the time. That's where I loose my prestige strength points.

I think the AI coming out of the clear blue sky and bombing your units is pretty realistic.

deducter
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by deducter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:25 pm

In the original PzC the AI does not cheat at all, the game is completely even. Sometimes the AI will move out planes/unit into the fog and get lucky, but I've never seen it go towards a unit it does not have LOS on and attack it. It is curious why here the AI can do this. Generally any FOW cheat is because there's a high spotting unit hidden somewhere (like a strongpoint with spotting = 4). I'm not sure in this case what the deal is, but it'd be nice to have some developer feedback on this.

Tarrak
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Tarrak » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:27 pm

I think Chris is trying to point out that the AI should not know where the weakest unit actually is as it should be unable to see it in the fog of war. As far i know the AI should follow the same detection rules as the player. Of course if you turn off the fog of war option and then you and the AI can see everything. On the screenshots it looks like you are playing without the fog of war as you can see all the enemy units in the south .. unless of course you have a spotter somewhere down there that is not in visible in the screenshot.

deducter
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by deducter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:50 pm

Tarrak wrote:I think Chris is trying to point out that the AI should not know where the weakest unit actually is as it should be unable to see it in the fog of war. As far i know the AI should follow the same detection rules as the player. Of course if you turn off the fog of war option and then you and the AI can see everything. On the screenshots it looks like you are playing without the fog of war as you can see all the enemy units in the south .. unless of course you have a spotter somewhere down there that is not in visible in the screenshot.
Yes, this is exactly right. Because this is v1.10 of the game and there was been tweaking to the AI, it might be possible that the AI can now see the player's units in the fog, but I find that exceedingly unlikely. I've ambushed the AI on multiple occasions with clever positioning of units. To my knowledge, the AI still obeys spotting rules. So it'd be nice to have a developer confirm that the AI still obeys the same spotting rules.

Chris10
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Chris10 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:53 pm

Razz1 wrote: I think the AI coming out of the clear blue sky and bombing your units is pretty realistic.
Fog of War not applying to AI is only annoying and no improvement whatsoever..its a step back
FOW has to apply equally to both sides..air and ground...thats why I enganged in a discussion about plane plotting
along its flying path some time ago...this would help the AI too but straight ignoring FOW is a very bad design decision
deducter wrote:To my knowledge, the AI still obeys spotting rules. So it'd be nice to have a developer confirm that the AI still obeys the same spotting rules.
this seems only to hold true for ground units otherwise what happend would have been impossible
this is no AI improovement but AI cheat > (Unfair Advantage)

Rudankort
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Rudankort » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:15 pm

Guys, while I did change the AI for Africa, I did not do anything which could cause this effect. It could be a bug, but I doubt it. However, in AK there are new AI behaviors, like patrol and random patrol, and if I'm not mistaken, Kresimir is using them in Africa scenarios. Maybe the units were spotted by a patrolling unit, even if at the end of AI's turn this unit is too far from spotted player's unit. This could explain what you observe.

If it is a bug, it must be fixed.

In general, my philosophy is this: the AI should not cheat, because it is not fun. For example, sneaking some paratroopers behind the line is always an interesting and fun tactics, so why disable it by allowing AI's planes to see through FoW? Killer AI was never my goal, and even if it were, cheating cannot really make the AI much stronger than it is. In PG the AI did outrageous cheats (like replacing its planes for free and next to enemy units), but this did not make much difference. Scenario design, on the hand, creates all the difference in the world.

deducter
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by deducter » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:20 pm

Rudankort wrote: In general, my philosophy is this: the AI should not cheat, because it is not fun. For example, sneaking some paratroopers behind the line is always an interesting and fun tactics, so why disable it by allowing AI's planes to see through FoW? Killer AI was never my goal, and even if it were, cheating cannot really make the AI much stronger than it is. In PG the AI did outrageous cheats (like replacing its planes for free and next to enemy units), but this did not make much difference. Scenario design, on the hand, creates all the difference in the world.
That's one of the things that most impressed me about this game: the AI does not cheat. In almost all other strategy games I've played the AI plays by a different set of rules.

Tarrak
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Tarrak » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:27 pm

The AI still definitively still obeys the FoW for ground units. I had during my testing in beta 2 multiple occurrence of AI ground units running into an ambush. I am quite sure i saw the AI trying to strafe a unit that had my fighter behind it, obviously it didn't go well for the AI. :P So the problem Chris encountered seems to a bug related to something specific.

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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by VPaulus » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:38 pm

deducter wrote:
Rudankort wrote: In general, my philosophy is this: the AI should not cheat, because it is not fun. For example, sneaking some paratroopers behind the line is always an interesting and fun tactics, so why disable it by allowing AI's planes to see through FoW? Killer AI was never my goal, and even if it were, cheating cannot really make the AI much stronger than it is. In PG the AI did outrageous cheats (like replacing its planes for free and next to enemy units), but this did not make much difference. Scenario design, on the hand, creates all the difference in the world.
That's one of the things that most impressed me about this game: the AI does not cheat. In almost all other strategy games I've played the AI plays by a different set of rules.
+1

Chris10
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Chris10 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Rudankort wrote:Guys, while I did change the AI for Africa, I did not do anything which could cause this effect. It could be a bug, but I doubt it. However, in AK there are new AI behaviors, like patrol and random patrol, and if I'm not mistaken, Kresimir is using them in Africa scenarios. Maybe the units were spotted by a patrolling unit, even if at the end of AI's turn this unit is too far from spotted player's unit. This could explain what you observe.

If it is a bug, it must be fixed.
There was no spotting unit nowhere near in range..this plane is the first unit the AI moves in the senario and always spot on to the mounted arty from outside any possible spotting range, there is no logical explanation nor interpretation for this..even if the plane is set to random patrol it doesnt explain explain why it always hits the arty in the truck...sry,no way
Tarrak wrote:The AI still definitively still obeys the FoW for ground units.
yes..ground units run into ambushes so they definately obey the FOW but a plane crossing half map to hit the arty in the truck on 4 times in a row even though each time you place the arty on a different hex ? ...naahhh...does not sound very plausible,does it?...

Rudankort
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Rudankort » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:39 pm

chris10 wrote:There was no spotting unit nowhere near in range..this plane is the first unit the AI moves in the senario and always spot on to the mounted arty from outside any possible spotting range, there is no logical explanation nor interpretation for this..even if the plane is set to random patrol it doesnt explain explain why it always hits the arty in the truck...sry,no way
Well, then please send me a saved game where I can hit "End Turn" and observe the problem you are talking about. Thx! rudankort@rsdn.ru

Kerensky
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Kerensky » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:43 pm

Heh, you guys are silly. The answer is in the editor. :)

The reason the AI has perfect vision on your units is because those Hurricanes 'spawn' in on top of your units and immediately get their turn. One Hurricane spawns in at 16,7 directly on top of your arty units providing instant vision for that entire area, which is where the second Hurricane comes from.

All working as intended, which is why one of the new tips is....
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=29134
3. Escort your Stukas.
The AI has a tendency to send its aircraft to attack in waves now. So expect air battles for some scenarios to last the entire length of a scenario, not just a quick 3 turn clearing of the skies at the start of a scenario!
Or in this case, you need to escort your units in transport. ;)

Razz1
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Razz1 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:47 pm

I was wondering about that as in several map I would see planes appear in hexes on left side of map and all the airfields not captured are on the right.

Good research Kerensky

Chris10
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Chris10 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:09 pm

Kerensky wrote:Heh, you guys are silly. The answer is in the editor. :)

The reason the AI has perfect vision on your units is because those Hurricanes 'spawn' in on top of your units and immediately get their turn. One Hurricane spawns in at 16,7 directly on top of your arty units providing instant vision for that entire area, which is where the second Hurricane comes from.

All working as intended, which is why one of the new tips is....
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=29134
errrrr...fuuuuu Image

ok..I checked with the editor...clear now..

However what is not so clear is the processing...as far as I know a unit spawns and acts immediately,then spawns the next unit and so on...the first unit to spawn is the plane on 6/4 and then it acts...now..it doesnt explain why a plane which hasnt been spawned (the one at 16/7) gives vision over an area..the unit on 16/7 does not exist in the moment the plane from 6/4 hit the arty on 16/8..how can it give vision ?...this is still a mystery

Kerensky
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Kerensky » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:12 pm

All units that trigger do so simultaneously before the start of the corresponding players turn and then the AI plays its turn normally.

Chris10
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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Chris10 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Kerensky wrote:All units that trigger do so simultaneously before the start of the corresponding players turn and then the AI plays its turn normally.
ah..ok..now its much clearer what happend...
Its a bit irritating that the units spawn all simultaneously but then spring out of the nowhere once their turn arrives while obviously already giving vision to their other units while still invisible to the players eyes...

thats what got me confused... :lol: ..I thought WTF ?...ok..this solved...case closed

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Re: Annoying AI cheat

Post by Kerensky » Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:22 pm

Yes this is why scenario designers have to take some caution with units that spawn in as reinforcements, because if they appear on top of player units, there is no reaction time. It certainly does promote proper escorting of units though, which is a good game play behavior.

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