AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

After action reports for Commander The Great War

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xriz
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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by xriz » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:35 am

@Stormbringer3.

I have been beta testing this game for weeks now so I'm very familiar with the setup by now and I didn't go into what was happening on the other fronts, which were suffering a bit due to my wanting to try and pull the Schlieffen plan off. The AI isn't perfect but its not a push over either.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by marklv » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:24 am

Myrddraal wrote:You can still choose to not invade Belgium, but Belgium will declare war regardless.

I can only hope to persuade you that this does make the game more fun. Without the Belgian declaration of war, the game becomes very one-sided very quickly. As the Entente player, it wouldn't be much fun if the CP never invaded. This is especially a problem for multiplayer.

We had originally intended to do as you suggest, and allow the player to decide, and we only reversed are decision after intensive testing led us to conclude that the game loses a lot if that option is followed.
And if Belgium delcares war, so will Britain. I take your point about onesidedness, but irrespective of this it would have been more interesting in allowing the players to explore different scernarios. What you have done is limit the playability, which is unfortunate. Slightly arrogant of you to decide what the buyer of the game wants or doesn't want to do - let him decide, he is the one paying you!

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Myrddraal » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:28 am

Hi marklv, the last thing I want to do is to appear arrogant! I'll send you a modified file which allows you to play with a neutral Belgium (unless you declare war). For the majority of players however, offering an option which leads to a one-sided game is not going to lead to happy customers.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Jestre » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:24 pm

Why not just include the Belgium neutrality scenario and have a pop-up box notify the player how unbalanced the game will be....

Also if it is highly unbalanced it could be used as a beginners campaign...

xriz
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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by xriz » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Come on, its not a World War without the Germans invading neutral Belgium, that's like having a banana split with out the banana, then its just ice cream.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Samhain » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:08 pm

No choice would be better than a non-choice.
In spite of the Final Fantasy character it's pronounced sao-win after the Irish pagan god of death. I'm not a pagan but we're on a wargames website so I thought it fitting.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by marklv » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:11 am

Myrddraal wrote:Hi marklv, the last thing I want to do is to appear arrogant! I'll send you a modified file which allows you to play with a neutral Belgium (unless you declare war). For the majority of players however, offering an option which leads to a one-sided game is not going to lead to happy customers.
You may well be right. I'm not trying to argue with you, I only wish to point out that many potential customers would appreciate having the choice - so why not simply have it as an option? Would it do any harm?

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by lordzimoa » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:53 am

We are considering adding an alternative history option with free open technology to an expansion. Let us release the main game first.

Just like what we did for the Panzer Corps series, the Commander series will be well supported and this release is a first mayor step, but there is more to come...

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by marklv » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:32 am

lordzimoa wrote:We are considering adding an alternative history option with free open technology to an expansion. Let us release the main game first.

Just like what we did for the Panzer Corps series, the Commander series will be well supported and this release is a first mayor step, but there is more to come...
Thanks - it's good to hear this. :)

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by majpalmer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:52 pm

Myrddraall, I understand the decision to force the German invasion of Belgium for the sake of game play and balance.

But the fact that you had to do that because otherwise players would clean up in the East, does suggest what I have always suspected and argued: that German strategy was poor. They could have fought a longer war than they imagined, and they should have focused their main effort on the Eastern Front.

In virtually every Great War game that I have played, both board and PC, you always do better if you hold in the West and head East. Adanac's "Guns of August" works out the same way.

As it is in your game, I suspect that many, if not most, players drive into Belgium half-heartedly, dig in, and then focus on the Eastern Front.

I also suspect that most players will avoid the other German strategic blunder: the unrestricted submarine warfare campaign that brought the US into the war. I am on my sixth CP game and only triggered American entry once: on purpose when everyone was already beaten except the UK, which surrendered the turn after US entry.

I think that down the road you may need to at least offer an option that you can turn on at the start that brings the US into the war no matter what you do.

I know that everyone focuses on the German use of submarines. And it was key. But another major element for President Wilson was the first Russian revolution in March 1917. Wilson was loathe to join an alliance alongside Tsarist Russia. Once the Tsar was gone, Wilson could envision going to war, although even then he brought the US in not as an "ally," but as an "associated" power. It was no coincidence that American entry came in April 1917, shortly after the turmoil in Petrograd.

It would be nice to have an start-up option for US entry with two triggers--the submarine trigger and the Russian Revolution trigger--with either bringing the US into the conflict.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:20 am

majpalmer wrote: I know that everyone focuses on the German use of submarines. And it was key. But another major element for President Wilson was the first Russian revolution in March 1917. Wilson was loathe to join an alliance alongside Tsarist Russia. Once the Tsar was gone, Wilson could envision going to war, although even then he brought the US in not as an "ally," but as an "associated" power. It was no coincidence that American entry came in April 1917, shortly after the turmoil in Petrograd.

It would be nice to have an start-up option for US entry with two triggers--the submarine trigger and the Russian Revolution trigger--with either bringing the US into the conflict.
There was also this which might be included as an event in the game . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

And this as well . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_explosion

I found this useful website the other day . . .

"German intelligence trained special agents, most of whom used professional or diplomatic covers in the United States, to conduct acts of sabotage against United States industries that aided the British, French, and Russian allied forces in the war. International rules of engagement limited the ways in which Germany and Austria-Hungary could provoke or attack the declaredly neutral United States. German high command desired to cripple United States aid capabilities, but not provoke the nation to enter the conflict. German undercover agents attacked railroads, warehouses, shipyards, and military instillations in 1914 and 1915. Agents attempted to make these attacks appear as accidents, but United States authorities caught several potential saboteurs before they destroyed property, unmasking the German plot. Anti-spy hysteria fueled public fear and anger regarding the acts of German saboteurs.

German and Austrian agents carried out more than 50 acts of sabotage against United States targets on American soil during the course of the war. Most of the attacks occurred in New York City and the region surrounding New York harbor. The most famous and devastating attack, the sabotage of Black Tom Pier, shook buildings and broke windows across New York City and suburban New Jersey. The July 29, 1916, explosion destroyed several ships and waterfront ammunition storage facilities. The attack decimated Black Tom Pier, the staging area for most shipments bound for the Western Front in Europe.

German sabotage attacks in the United States, while successful, only managed to strike at a handful of military and shipping targets. The United States government continued to aid British and French forces in Europe, but the attacks inflamed pro-war sentiment."


http://www.faqs.org/espionage/Vo-Z/World-War-I.html

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Umeu » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:43 am

marklv wrote:
Myrddraal wrote:You can still choose to not invade Belgium, but Belgium will declare war regardless.

I can only hope to persuade you that this does make the game more fun. Without the Belgian declaration of war, the game becomes very one-sided very quickly. As the Entente player, it wouldn't be much fun if the CP never invaded. This is especially a problem for multiplayer.

We had originally intended to do as you suggest, and allow the player to decide, and we only reversed are decision after intensive testing led us to conclude that the game loses a lot if that option is followed.
And if Belgium delcares war, so will Britain. I take your point about onesidedness, but irrespective of this it would have been more interesting in allowing the players to explore different scernarios. What you have done is limit the playability, which is unfortunate. Slightly arrogant of you to decide what the buyer of the game wants or doesn't want to do - let him decide, he is the one paying you!
no offense intended but i've never really understood this approach to games, it is not a game on demand, these people also have a vision and a passion and should have great if not full control of the creative process. if you do not want what they provide you dont buy it, that is the gamers influence. ofcourse it is good that there are beta's and that designers listen to creative input or constructive criticism from players but other than that... what if all players would be like yes, nice game but it needs zombies... they have to add zombies then? that would just be ridiculous, if you want a ww1 zombie game and not a regular ww1 game, dont buy it.
Check out Project: IMBA, the balance mod for the multiplayer section of Commander: the Great War. Your input is appreciated! viewtopic.php?f=218&t=39677

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by soldier » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:21 am

nice game but it needs zombies...
that's what I've always thought

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by anguille » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:02 pm

I am late to the discussion but i would also like to see the option to keep Belgium neutral (like Switzerland). At the beginning of the war, GB, the US and Italy were not sure if they wanted to enter the war and this should be reflected in the game. Russia, France, Germany, Serbia and Austria-Hungary are the nations which should be in the war from the start...

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Jonathan_Pollard » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:48 pm

Myrddraal wrote:Hi marklv, the last thing I want to do is to appear arrogant! I'll send you a modified file which allows you to play with a neutral Belgium (unless you declare war).
If the modified file works with 1.30, I'd like to have that file too.
"We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba" "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington" - US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwoods, 1962

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Myrddraal » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:01 pm

Open 1914.lua in data/Scripts, go to line 746 or search for ScenarioSetup(). There you can change the starting alignment of all neutral nations.

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Jonathan_Pollard » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:16 pm

I made Belgium, England, and Turkey permanently neutral in the 1914.lua and it worked fine in single player. Maybe I'll try something like that in multiplayer. It's possible that Turkey would have stayed neutral if the UK did not enter the war, because the UK would not have antagonized Turkey by seizing Turkish warships in UK harbors as it did historically in August 1914.
"We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba" "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington" - US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwoods, 1962

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Myrddraal » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:22 pm

It's also true that a lot of Turkey's military ambitions were against British interests, especially in Egypt & India. Turkey's declaration of war against Serbia or Russia (or the UK) could quite easily have dragged the UK into the war, which might actually have been a disincentive for the Turks to get involved.

A word of warning about multiplayer - first make sure both players have exactly the same files, and always back-up the originals!

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Jonathan_Pollard » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:11 pm

Attached is the 1914.lua file modified for Belgian/UK/Turkish neutrality for those who would rather download it instead of editing it manually.
Attachments
1914.zip
1914.lua file modified for Belgian/UK/Turkish neutrality
(4.16 KiB) Downloaded 246 times
"We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba" "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington" - US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Operation Northwoods, 1962

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Re: AAR: The Schlieffen Plan.

Post by Rowan56 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:47 pm

Thanks for sharing that xris, very informative mate.
Rowan

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