Air Support

After action reports for Commander The Great War

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Jimbonsx
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Air Support

Post by Jimbonsx » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:50 am

Well, I've just bombed (pun intended) on my second PBEM - I had to surrender as things were just getting silly.

Does anyone here recall an AH game called 'Third Reich' from the 1970's? The third edition rules limited the quantity of air support that could be applied to any one battle hex.
Anyone here played CEAW? There's a limit on air support that can be applied to any one battle hex.

Detect a theme here? I'm not saying I lost my game because I was facing 7 (count 'em) German fighter units in France but it sure was one hell of a contributing factor.

From reading the forums I can see that other gamers have registered the (IMO somewhat excessive) power of aircraft in CTGW, and from reading the Patch Release notes, the designers would seem to have acknowledged it too. Even the AI doesn't employ the tactic so it's clearly something the designers have shied away from using. So does anyone know if anyone's doing anything about it?

If not then I really don't see the point in continuing with the 1914 scenario - it unbalances further an already lopsided Campaign game.

Just a thought - I've only ever played two PBEM games of CTGW, both the 1914 start so I have no experience of any other scenario: does this sort of thing happen in the later-war games? I want to continue with CTGW but I would also like to register my presence on the battlefield in some role other than as a target, and right now I can't see that happening.

nehi
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:51 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by nehi » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:50 pm

just 7 fighters? that cant be me or it was a quick game :D

tbh, except 1918 are all other scenarios unbalanced in favor of entente (much higher production)

only way how to win as cp is to be really quick then, it works some way just in 1914 (1915,1916 and 1917 are like cp slept in begining, too many fronts and too low production, impossible to win as cp vs experienced entente player)

Jimbonsx
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by Jimbonsx » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:10 pm

So does this mean it's not worth persevering with a game that is heavily loaded in favour of one side or the other? Whatever happened to play balance......

nehi
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:51 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by nehi » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:33 pm

my point was, there is no reason to try change playing style with hard set rules, when there is huge disbalance in production, the only thing that should be fixed (small garrisons upkeep is just dumb, when u dont need to keep most of small garrisons, then its just incredible production boost to side with more small garrisons)

fighters are not the reason your entente defense fallen, when u can have more fighters than cp

operating
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
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Re: Air Support

Post by operating » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:26 am

[quote="Jimbonsx"
Does anyone here recall an AH game called 'Third Reich' from the 1970's? The third edition rules limited the quantity of air support that could be applied to any one battle hex.
Anyone here played CEAW? There's a limit on air support that can be applied to any one battle hex.
[/quote]

You are absolutely correct! Never played CEAW, none the less the air rule you mention would go a long way towards balancing this game. How someone missed this point (rule), Durr, (is beyond me). I had been playing this game almost from the time of it's release date, more so in MP, but had to stop playing because of all the stupid stuff that has not been fixed..... Let the truth be known: If something is not fixed, it is broken, there's no 2 ways about it... I'm not in denial, perhaps others are.... :roll:

nehi
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:51 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by nehi » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:00 am

air units are weak, they are fixed enough in my opinion, without them, or with limited numbers u cant penetrate trenches, dont say double trenches

small garrisons upkeep is game breaking (entente have just superior economic power through it, they should have advantage, but some that can be nullified with cp advance on the ground)

btw, operating, come back to one game, as u can know whats jimbo talking about :lol: (but u have to be fast, if u want to be the first one to stop it, in one game - 3rd try from that opponent - it doesnt go so well with my stormblitzkrieg 8) )

Jimbonsx
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:13 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by Jimbonsx » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:53 am

nehi wrote:air units are weak, they are fixed enough in my opinion, without them, or with limited numbers u cant penetrate trenches
Air units individually might be weak but remember we're talking about army-size units on the ground, battlefleets at sea and whole Luftflotte in the air. And I think you're wrong: "....u can have more fighters than cp" - not in 1914 you can't, not even early 1915, not as any of the EC players, if you want to keep a contiguous front line....

I seem to recall reading somewhere that artillery, not aircraft, was the big killer in WW1 - granted, without aerial recon the artillery might not be able to see what to shoot (but the Balloon Corps seemed to be quite useful in that respect) but it was still the artillery that did the shooting.
nehi wrote:small garrisons upkeep is game breaking (entente have just superior economic power through it, they should have advantage, but some that can be nullified with cp advance on the ground)
2 observations:
1 - Garrison units are supposed to be sitting in cities - I thought that upkeep was virtually zero for units in cities so unless/until they move out of them (they do in my games) upkeep shouldn't be an issue.
2 - Surely it can't be that hard to mod the game to either disallow garrison disbanding or ignore the PP reimbursement for garrison disbanding (apologies for calling you Shirley [old Airplane gag there :D])

nehi
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 720
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:51 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by nehi » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:28 pm

britain is part of entente, so they can have planes just 2 turns later than cp

im sure it can be countered, anything cp can do entente can do twice

when arts are useless then airplanes have to substitute their support role

Robotron
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Air Support

Post by Robotron » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:42 pm

If you people are not pleased by the current units combat value, why not just mod the units.lua file?
It's easily done using any text editor tool. You can experiment with any stat until you are satisfied.

Just look for the "fighter" entry in units.lua which looks like this

Code: Select all

{
    id = 13,
    name = "fighter",
    type = "air",
    defenseType = "smallgarrison",
    chassis = "wings",
    class = "air",
    icon = "fighter",
    levels =
    {
      {
        hp = 100,
        mp = 7,
        ap = 1,
        LOS = 5,
        range = 5,
        shock = 2,
        attack = 4,
        defense = 6,
        airattack = 4,
        airdefense = 6,
        bombard = 0,
        assault = 0,
        ammunition = 0,
      }
    },
    --retreat = 0,
    costPP = 30,
    costMP = 1,
    turns = 5,
    upkeepPP = 1,
    upkeepMP = 0,
    weapon = "light",
    factions = { 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10 },
    strengthValue = 6,

    stats =
    {
      groundattack = 1,
      airattack    = 4,
      airdefense   = 6,
      basedefense = 6,
      highdefense = 8,
      bombard = 0,
      shock = 2,
    },
  },
I'd suggest lowering the value for ground attack to 0 and reduce shock to 1 or even 0. Maybe even raise the mp cost to something like 40. Just make sure both players use the same modified units.lua for multiplayer games.

Hope this helps.

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