Extra British fighter when France falls

Moderators: firepowerjohan, rkr1958, Happycat, Slitherine Core

Should we spawn an extra British fighter when France falls

1. No, keep as is.
7
41%
2. Yes, add a Polish fighter in England with the strength of the French fighter
0
No votes
3. Yes, add a Polish fighter in England with the strength of the French fighter nly if armistice offer accepted
2
12%
4. Yes, add a Polish fighter in England with strength 3
6
35%
5. Yes, add a Polish fighter in England with strength 3 only if armistice offer is accepted
2
12%
 
Total votes: 17

Peter Stauffenberg
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Extra British fighter when France falls

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:54 pm

To make the Battle of Britain more historical some beta testers have suggested that Britain should get an extra fighter when France falls. Please vote what you think we should do.

By allowing a depleted British fighter to spawn near Liverpool we give the UK a better chance to fight the battle of Britain. Naming the fighter Polish is probably a good idea to simulate the valiant Allied effort by the pilots from the occupied countries like Poland, Norway, France etc. who all fought with the RAF.

We could link the strength to the French fighter strength or keep it at a fixed value of 3. We could also decide to only let it spawn if the armistice offer was accepted. If the armistice offer was rejected then the French fighter will remain on the map. B ut that could be the French pilots who surrendered in the real war when the armistice was accepted so maybe they should come in addition. If we want the British fighter to spawn regardless of the armistice offer then it should spawn at strength 3 and not linked to the French fighter strength.

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:56 pm

In PP, how much does this save the British if they get a 3-step fighter and replace up to 10 instead of building a new fighter outright?

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Post by Cybvep » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:50 pm

Option 3, although with a minimum STR cap of 3, which should apply even though the fighter doesn't exist. Therefore, if you save the fighter then you get the increased STR and if you lose it you get it at 3 STR. This would be a balanced option and could give the Allies several posibilities in regard to the use of the French FTR. Sea Lion would become a little tougher to conduct but it would still be far from being impossible.

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Post by joerock22 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:17 am

It seems like the British should get some pilots from Poland, but what if Norway was not invaded until later, unlike what happened historically? Would Norwegian and Danish pilots have risked their lives in large numbers if their countries weren't occupied?

I think all of the options listed above are too arbitrary. If you just spawn it at the strength of the French fighter, you don't take into account the pilots from the other countries; you just link it to the French. And if you spawn it at 3 steps regardless, then you don't take into consideration the number of French pilots who survived the fighting. But clearly not ALL of the French pilots would have fought for the RAF if their country surrendered; some would undoubtedly have gone back to their homes. So here's what I propose:

RAF fighter spawns at the Fall of France, whether or not armistice is accepted, at zero strength, plus the following:

If Poland has been conquered: +1
If Denmark has been conquered: +1
If Norway has been conquered: +1
(any other minor countries): +1

If armistice is rejected: +0
If armistice is accepted: +(French fighter steps remaining / 3)

With this, you take into account whether the other minor countries were invaded by Germany at the time, and also the reality that not all the French pilots would have chosen to fight for the RAF if their country surrendered. You can play with the denominator of the equation for calculating the French fighter steps, but I think 2 might be too much. If the French have 6 fighter steps remaining, it seems reasonable that only 2 of those steps could have escaped to Britain to continue fighting. And if the armistice is rejected, the French pilots will obviously keep fighting for their own country, but the British still get a few pilots from other conquered countries.

What do you guys think?

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:24 am

I think Joe's suggestion looks fine. In a normal game it means the British will get +1 from Poland, Holland and Belgium = 3 steps. If the Axis attack Norway and Denmark first they can get 5 steps. If the French fighter survives they can get up to 3 more (but most likely 1 or 2).

Should we only check for conquered minor powers or also minor powers still at war on the Allied side?

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:25 am

I think we can add this to the extra UK fighter spawning that we have in general.txt and put the value to 1 as default and move the spawn time to the French surrender.

Any suggestion to the name of the unit? What was the name of the Polish RAF unit who fought after Poland surrendered?

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Post by joerock22 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:27 am

Stauffenberg wrote:Should we only check for conquered minor powers or also minor powers still at war on the Allied side?
That probably won't come into play very often, but you're right to think about it. I would say only check for conquered countries. What patriot would go fight for the RAF when their own country isn't conquered yet?

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Post by joerock22 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:34 am

From wikipedia:
The first squadrons were 300 and 301 bomber squadrons and 302 and 303 fighter squadrons. The fighter squadrons, flying the Hawker Hurricane, first saw action in the third phase of the Battle of Britain in late August 1940, quickly becoming highly effective. Polish flying skills were well-developed from the Invasion of Poland and the pilots were regarded as fearless and sometimes bordered on reckless. Their success rates were very high in comparison to the less-experienced British Commonwealth pilots.[5] 303 squadron became the most efficient RAF fighter unit at that time.[6] Many Polish pilots also flew in other RAF squadrons.
Note that the Polish air force didn't see action until August 1940. Is this a problem? Should we spawn the fighter in the first turn of August 1940 even if France falls before that?

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Post by Cybvep » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:48 am

BTW what if Germany invades the UK before attacking France? Can the game handle it? If not, then it sounds like an exploit (let's just say that it's not very plausible ;) ).

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Post by rkr1958 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:10 pm

I vote for Joe's option.
Cybvep wrote:BTW what if Germany invades the UK before attacking France? Can the game handle it? If not, then it sounds like an exploit (let's just say that it's not very plausible ;) ).
I would think so. This would happen before Italian entry so no Italians. And you'd have the French fighter and at least one French naval unit in the Atlantic to support the RAF and RN there. Even though the Canadian units (fighter, Mech and infantry corps) would not have spawned yet.

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Post by rkr1958 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:15 pm

Also, so much for being in the release candidate phase. :(

Do we need to transition back to the beta phase? If so, would this be GSv2.01.36?

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Post by Kragdob » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:04 pm

joerock22 wrote:From wikipedia:
The first squadrons were 300 and 301 bomber squadrons and 302 and 303 fighter squadrons. The fighter squadrons, flying the Hawker Hurricane, first saw action in the third phase of the Battle of Britain in late August 1940, quickly becoming highly effective. Polish flying skills were well-developed from the Invasion of Poland and the pilots were regarded as fearless and sometimes bordered on reckless. Their success rates were very high in comparison to the less-experienced British Commonwealth pilots.[5] 303 squadron became the most efficient RAF fighter unit at that time.[6] Many Polish pilots also flew in other RAF squadrons.
Note that the Polish air force didn't see action until August 1940. Is this a problem? Should we spawn the fighter in the first turn of August 1940 even if France falls before that?
Polish forces didn't see the action due to various logistical/political problems (e.g. English didn't believe Poles can be effective in combat) so it shouldn't be a problem - if UK finds it necessary earlier volunteers should join.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

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Re: Extra British fighter when France falls

Post by schwerpunkt » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:21 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:To make the Battle of Britain more historical some beta testers have suggested that Britain should get an extra fighter when France falls. Please vote what you think we should do.
What is not historical with the current setup? The Germans had more air units than the Brits so the current set up of two Brit FTRs (plus the non-historical FTR in Malta), is ok in my view. The Germans usually only have 3 FTRs by the FoF.

What is the driver to make a change here?

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Post by richardsd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:23 am

I suspect 2.1 is still favouring the Allies slightly, so I wouldn't give them another FTR

Peter Stauffenberg
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:32 am

rkr1958 wrote:Also, so much for being in the release candidate phase. :(

Do we need to transition back to the beta phase? If so, would this be GSv2.01.36?
No, we can call this RC5. Slitherine don't have the resources to make the installer before Christmas anyway so we can hope to get the final release out by early January. We can turn this on/off by setting a variable in general.txt to 1 or 0. So if we find out later that adding a Polish fighter is too much then we can turn it off in general.txt and not make any code changes.

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Re: Extra British fighter when France falls

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:38 am

schwerpunkt wrote:
Stauffenberg wrote:To make the Battle of Britain more historical some beta testers have suggested that Britain should get an extra fighter when France falls. Please vote what you think we should do.
What is not historical with the current setup? The Germans had more air units than the Brits so the current set up of two Brit FTRs (plus the non-historical FTR in Malta), is ok in my view. The Germans usually only have 3 FTRs by the FoF.

What is the driver to make a change here?
The driver is from those people who have been on the Allied side of Sealion. With the current setup it's quite hard to stop the Germans if they go for Sealion. The Axis can bring in the Italian fighter as well and 4 tactical bombers and 1 strategic bomber. It's hard for the British to stop that air strength. Germany lost the Battle of Britain and it seems to me that it was almost fighter parity in August 1940 between Germany and UK. Germany had many more bombers, though.

Britain can't normally afford to build another fighter prior to the fall of France, but they could spend PP's to get a depleted fighter up to higher strength.

So the change will mainly help making Sealion slightly harder unless the Germans invest most of what they have in going against Britain. If Germany does Sealion then a 1941 Barbarossa should be very hard to accomplish with decent success.

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Post by schwerpunkt » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:25 pm

The solution to making Sea Lion harder for the axis isnt to try and replicate the Battle of Britain, which cant be done because the game mechanics wont allow it. What should be done instead is to further limit the number of transports and amphibious assaults that the axis player can do (unless they significantly overspend PPs). Historically, the Germans were going to battle to transport even one or two corps due to their limited number of barges and other transports.

Sea Lion is current feasible because the Germans and Italians can put a significant number of tranports out to sea threatening multiple hexes, whereas in reality the Germans were probably only going to threaten four hexes at most with significant numbers of troops (small units could be dropped elsewhere but in CEAW terms they are too small to count).

This is where the fix should really be made if we are trying to reflect historical constraints, not in giving the Brits another air unit (in addition to the Malta air unit which shouldnt exist at this time either). The allied player can build an air unit if this is really what he wants to do. Me, I build MECHs and INF as they are cheaper to repair and force the axis player to launch amphibious assaults rather than being able to land in empty hexes.

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Post by rkr1958 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:15 pm

Neil,

I agree with you 100% from the historical point of view; but here's the rub. If we limit German invasion capacity to such an extent that Sea Lion is virtually impossible then we're back to the UK suicide strategy where the allied player can just reckless throw UK troops at the axis delaying the Fall of France, depleting axis oil and PP's and and significantly weakening their ability to launch Barbarossa without worry. Now historically, the Brits were afraid of invasion after the fall of France. I'm not sure what the best solution is but that I think we'd significantly limit re-playability if we great restrict the possibility of Sea Lion.

Personally, I thought we had the balance just right with regards to Sea Lion and Barbarossa. Then Max in his AAR has stated that a 2-year Sea Lion followed by a '42 invasion of Russia is easy and is unbeatable. My hope is that it's Max that's unbeatable and not this strategy. I paraphrasing here, but he's stated that he feels confident that any good player could use this strategy and guarantee an axis victory.

So we go to a point where an allied player using Morris' UK suicide strategy couldn't lose to an axis player using Max's Sea Lion/'42 Barbarossa strategy can't lose. Again, I wished this can't lose was due to Morris and Max's skill and not an unbeatable strategy but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I personally feel at times like a dog chasing its tail. We want to balance the game but in doing that maintain the fun and balance for the average player, make Sea Lion and Close the Med realistically strategies to win with but at odds slightly less than the historical strategy.

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Post by rkr1958 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:32 pm

All,

I wonder if taking a different tack to this might not be more historical. Instead of the proposed changes what if the US were to enter if both London and Liverpool fell. With this, the axis player would have to move quickly to conquer England and not have all of 1941 without having to worry about the USA and USSR.

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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:50 pm

The problem with a guaranteed US entry if Liverpool and London is Axis controlled is that then Sealion would become a lot less lucrative and you actually punish players for conquering Britain fast by letting USA join earlier. You might also see Axis players simply surround Liverpool to prevent having USA joining the Allies early.

We have to ask ourselves what would have happened if Britain had been invaded. Would USA and USSR just sit there and do nothing. Some claim that USA saw WW2 as the EUROPEAN war until Japan attacked at Pearl Harbor. The US public didn't want to fight in Europe again and Roosevelt had to struggle to get approval to help UK with lend lease.

If the Germans had taken Britain then I think some Americans would say that Europe is lost and let's stick to our neutrality. Roosevelt would probably have tried to help UK in the colonies, but a direct US engagement against Germany without a base in Europe would have been difficult.

Stalin would probably have more reasons to do something if Britain had fallen to the Germans. But he knew about how WW1 started (Russian mobilization forced Germany to DoW them). Stalin wasn't prepared to go for war in 1940-1941 and would have waited till 1942.

Maybe USA and USSR would have geared up their war effort a bit, but I don't think they would have joined the Allies to fight Germany.

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