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Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:37 pm
by Kragdob
I have a proposal for making Egypt more valuable for both Players.

When Axis controls Suez then Italy will get +10 PPs (from Africa) and +10 to effectiveness (fulfilling Italian dream of creating colonial empire in Africa). This is not hudge but for Italy - the major German ally it is a difference.

This will make going for Egypt and defending it worthy as Italians with +10 effectiveness will be quite a good force to fight.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:00 pm
by Cybvep
Effectiveness... maybe. Morale would probably be higher if the Italians conquered Egypt, it actually makes sense. However, it would be more realistic to decrease the rate of southern convoy spawn for the UK instead of giving PPs to Italy. Africa shouldn't be valuable in terms PPs, but the UK should suffer after losing Suez.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:16 pm
by jimwinsor
Maybe a small convoy for Italy spawns in the Suez in this case, representing goodies from Ethiopia (presumably if the Brits lost Egypt, Italy would have been able to retain it's east African empire).

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:25 pm
by Cybvep
Italian East Africa wasn't resource-rich and its industrial production was pretty much nonexistent, while agricultural production was unsatisfactory. In fact, the colony was pretty expensive to maintain and if you add the army maintenance to that, it becomes clear that Ethiopia wasn't worth much from an economic perspective.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:32 am
by Kragdob
The problem with reduction of UK convoy is that if Axis controls southern route then UK Players doesn't care if he looses the convoys that do not reach UK anyway.

But if Italy is strengthtened then UK suffers as well. It is harder to make an invasion on Europe as it can be defended by Italians that are nearly 80 effectiveness and have 1/3 more income. So NA would have to be dealt with first.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:16 am
by Cybvep
The convoy would have to be sunk normally. The UK would simply get fewer PPs because of the reduced spawn rate. Again, increasing Italian PPs because Italy controls Africa makes no sense. Although... IRL Italy never mobilised to the extent other nations did. Morale was low, organisation was poor, Mussolini entered the war unprepared, he had to keep the population happy etc. It could be argued that if the Axis conquered Egypt, Mussolini would have an easier time with mobilising the nation for war with promises of more glory, more victories, more conquests etc. and as we know, the appetite comes with eating. Therefore, maybe Italy could gain +10 to war effort if the Axis controls Suez in addition to the +10 effectiveness bonus and the reduced southern convoy spawn for the UK? That would be quite tasty for the Axis. Not necessarily war-winning, but still quite tasty.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:21 pm
by GogTheMild
Cybvep wrote: Although... IRL Italy never mobilised to the extent other nations did. Morale was low, organisation was poor, Mussolini entered the war unprepared, he had to keep the population happy etc. It could be argued that if the Axis conquered Egypt, Mussolini would have an easier time with mobilising the nation for war with promises of more glory, more victories, more conquests etc. and as we know, the appetite comes with eating. Therefore, maybe Italy could gain +10 to war effort if the Axis controls Suez in addition to the +10 effectiveness bonus and the reduced southern convoy spawn for the UK? That would be quite tasty for the Axis. Not necessarily war-winning, but still quite tasty.
I like the sound of that. Seems realistic and nicely balanced.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:00 pm
by Peter Stauffenberg
The problem about reducing the UK southern convoy is that losing Suez wouldn't stop the convoys. They would just have to sail around the Cape of Good Hope. So you get a delay in PP's, not a lower output.

I think boosting Italian morale by 10 if Port Said is Axis controlled sounds intriguing. Boosting the Italy production by 3 (from Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland) can be another boost. That is pretty low, but noticeable for Italy.

If we boost Italian morale by getting Port Said then we should probably also consider dropping the Italian morale if there are no Axis units at all remaining in Africa. Then the Italian dreams are utterly crushed and their will to fight drops.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:33 pm
by Cybvep
The problem about reducing the UK southern convoy is that losing Suez wouldn't stop the convoys. They would just have to sail around the Cape of Good Hope. So you get a delay in PP's, not a lower output.
Exactly, but a lower rate of spawn also means that the Allies get fewer PPs during the game, because fewer convoys will appear during the game's timeline.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:24 pm
by GogTheMild
Stauffenberg wrote:If we boost Italian morale by getting Port Said then we should probably also consider dropping the Italian morale if there are no Axis units at all remaining in Africa. Then the Italian dreams are utterly crushed and their will to fight drops.
Why do we have to have a down side? If the Italians have no units left in Africa, why can't they remain the useless, apathetic force they were when the war started? Ie worse than Roumanians when the Russians have crossed the Siret.

It may go some little way towards balancing the game. Yes, I know, the game is already balanced. (And I'm a teapot.)

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:02 am
by Kragdob
Stauffenberg wrote:If we boost Italian morale by getting Port Said then we should probably also consider dropping the Italian morale if there are no Axis units at all remaining in Africa. Then the Italian dreams are utterly crushed and their will to fight drops.
If you mean taking back the bonus I fully agree with this approach.

Re: Italy has +10 PPs and +10 effectiveness when Suez falls

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:09 am
by Morris
Kragdob wrote:The problem with reduction of UK convoy is that if Axis controls southern route then UK Players doesn't care if he looses the convoys that do not reach UK anyway.

But if Italy is strengthtened then UK suffers as well. It is harder to make an invasion on Europe as it can be defended by Italians that are nearly 80 effectiveness and have 1/3 more income. So NA would have to be dealt with first.
Yes , it sounds good . To reduce convoy's number is controlled by game engine , but increased Italian pp is controlled by Axis player . So Italians can perform better . :)