Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

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Cerberus51
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by Cerberus51 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:09 pm

hurly wrote:Scenario #19

I bought 2 extra Saharianas for Team Red to give me more vision, but in hindsight it might have been better to save the Prestige for the last Scenario.
I would have no hesitation in buying a unit, using it for a scenario or two, then disbanding it during the deployment phase to get the prestige back, particularly recons.

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:31 pm

I'm not that kind of angel.
i respect the feelings of my troopers :mrgreen: :lol:

Of course you are right from a Tactical and Economical Point of View.

But the Old School Stubborn Commander I am, I not only wanted to finish the Campaign I wanted to finish it in Style inviting all my Boys to the Farewell Party in Taj Mahal

"Leave no Man Behind !"

So expect an Extra Replay for the last Scenario for Run 1 as I have sinned and lost Discipline in my first try. I had the decisive victory but hurried and rushed it as I forgot I just needed only 10 Victory Hexes and not all displayed on the Map (I always rub it in on goose Read the Briefing carefully all the time, so shame on me) Leaving innocent Troopers in the Line of Naval Fire for no Reason did not do them any good :oops: . (Will display that bad effort for some self humiliation anyway)
But then felt the obligation to make a clean Finish and redid the Final Turns
Attachments
(15.03.2017) Kaukasus, Runde 25.zip
(85.32 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
(16.03.2017) Arabien, Runde 19.zip
(80.13 KiB) Downloaded 137 times
(16.03.2017) Ostafrika, Runde 22.zip
(84.33 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
Last edited by hurly on Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

captainjack
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by captainjack » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:29 pm

This has been a good read and although I've played AK quite a few times, I have still picked up good ideas from this.
As always, the single best piece of advice is to read the briefings!

One thing you didn't mention (or I missed it). Once you move into British held Africa, there's a few churchills and maybe one or two cromwells which have strength x/1. There is a decent prestige advantage in forcing an overstrength unit to surrender so the churchills (which are already reasonably expensive) can generate a very healthy prestige boost when you need it most.
I've tried doing this as a deliberate tactic, but it was a bit too slow to be worthwhile and I lost focus on other important tasks. However, I'd recommend taking opportunities to target surrender on these units when they are in a big attacking group and relatively easy to surround.

What was your final view on the Centauro upgrade?

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:16 am

captainjack wrote:This has been a good read and although I've played AK quite a few times, I have still picked up good ideas from this.
As always, the single best piece of advice is to read the briefings!

One thing you didn't mention (or I missed it). Once you move into British held Africa, there's a few churchills and maybe one or two cromwells which have strength x/1. There is a decent prestige advantage in forcing an overstrength unit to surrender so the churchills (which are already reasonably expensive) can generate a very healthy prestige boost when you need it most.
I've tried doing this as a deliberate tactic, but it was a bit too slow to be worthwhile and I lost focus on other important tasks. However, I'd recommend taking opportunities to target surrender on these units when they are in a big attacking group and relatively easy to surround.

What was your final view on the Centauro upgrade?
Thanks for the nice Words

I'm not quite sure what exactly you mean with this remark
once you move into British held Africa, there's a few churchills and maybe one or two cromwells which have strength x/1.
Can you give me a more exact description which Scenario and which Tank group you mean ?

The Centauro Upgrade

Well just from my stomach I would say it was worth it although 500 PP is almost another Panther Tank so it's a question of budget. On Rommel with Prestige at a Premium it's definitely tricky
On Colonel with Normal Prestige at Hand the Cost probably does not Matter at all
Although for Italian Challenge it depends on Type of awarded SE Units

So I give you the cold Numbers First + the Numbers of AA Units as they keep the Heat away from the Fighters

For Run 1 (which has the Reward German Fighter Slot and the Captured Spitfire Slot only for a 3 Fighter Army)

the Centauro was acquired for the Last 6 Scenarios updated in Persia

Centauro 6 Scenarios 87 Kills 57 Losses
Reward Fighter (SE Bf 109 G) 1 Scenario 30 Kills 7 Losses then upgraded to
Reward Fighter (SE FW 190 A) 5 Scenarios 124 Kills 34 Losses
Captured Spitfire (Fw 190 A) 6 Scenarios 95 Kills 11 Losses

AA Support
Mobile AA (SdKfz 7/2) 6 Scenarios 107 Kills 9 Losses
AA 90 (veteran from Brevity) 6 Scenarios 151 Kills 11 Losses
AA 90 (Green Unit) 6 Scenarios 59 Kills 8 Losses

(The Run 1 Centauro went 46 Kills to 24 Losses for the Final 4 Scenarios)

For Team Red (which has the SE Reward Fighter, an awarded SE Fighter and the Captured Spitfire a Fighter Army)

the Centauro was acquired for the Last 4 Scenarios updated in Arabia, the Veltro had to fight the Persia and Caucasus Scenario still

Veltro 2 Scenarios 43 Kills 5 Losses
Centauro 4 Scenarios 62 Kills 9 Losses
Reward Fighter (SE FW 190 A) 6 Scenario 191 Kills 25 Losses
SE Fighter (SE FW 190 A) 6 Scenarios 100 Kills 27 Losses
Captured Spitfire (Fw 190 A) 6 Scenarios 111 Kills 14 Losses

AA Support
Mobile AA (SdKfz 7/2) 6 Scenarios 63 Kills 4 Losses
AA 90 6 Scenarios 70 Kills 1 Losses


well Bottom Line it's hard to tell if the Veltro would have been useful til the end especially with the Tempest Fighter coming up later on.

But certainly the Veltro and the Centauro did much better with 3 German Fighters beside them.
May have to do with the Fact that here a lot more Strafe Attacks are involved
Team Red also gained Total Air Superiority in British India quite early, which Run 1 did not and had to deal with the British Fighter Plague til the End


My personal final verdict
if you are lucky enough to get 3 German SE Fighters plus the "Captured Spitfire" during the Afrika Korps Campaign you can even let the Italian Fighter idle.
if you have just the Reward SE Fighter plus the "Captured Spitfire" you have to rely much more on AA Units while the Italian Fighter can not be sheltered and has to take a "regular" Turn

So the Game with its Random SE Awards (incl Heroes) has a significant Impact on your Use of certain Units, maybe even forces your Hand what to do
Attachments
(28.03.2017) Auf dem Weg nach Indien, Runde 26.zip
(89.98 KiB) Downloaded 116 times
(30.03.2017) Britisch-Indien, Runde 27.zip
(116.03 KiB) Downloaded 136 times
Last edited by hurly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

captainjack
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by captainjack » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:34 am

hurly wrote:Can you give me a more exact description which Scenario and which Tank group you mean ?

SPOILER ALERT





I just had a look now. I found five scenarios which include Churchills with base strength 1. I couldn't find any Cromwells, so must have just made that bit up. The base strength 1 means that they are quite likely to be overstrength when the surrender prestige is calculated.

Alam Halfa (35,7)
Basra (4,16)
Persia (32,19), (28,12); (35,11)
Arabia (24,7); (23, 8 ); (28,11); (11, 18)
East Africa (5,1); (17,17); (22,12); (19,12)

Arabia is probably the easiest scenario to force surrenders as several are part of a reasonably large mass of troops. Even if not desperate for prestige forcing surrender is probably the fastest and most reliable way to take out Churchills (helpful when playing Germans, almost essential when Italians), although ammo stripping with your strategic bombers also makes them easier to handle.

There may be a couple of Matilda 2 with base strength 4 or 5 in earlier scenarios. As with the Churchills you might find that forcing surrender is the easiest or fastest way to destroy them even if you don't really need the prestige.

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:57 am

captainjack wrote:
hurly wrote:Can you give me a more exact description which Scenario and which Tank group you mean ?

SPOILER ALERT





I just had a look now. I found five scenarios which include Churchills with base strength 1. I couldn't find any Cromwells, so must have just made that bit up. The base strength 1 means that they are quite likely to be overstrength when the surrender prestige is calculated.

Alam Halfa (35,7)
Basra (4,16)
Persia (32,19), (28,12); (35,11)
Arabia (24,7); (23, 8 ); (28,11); (11, 18)
East Africa (5,1); (17,17); (22,12); (19,12)

Arabia is probably the easiest scenario to force surrenders as several are part of a reasonably large mass of troops. Even if not desperate for prestige forcing surrender is probably the fastest and most reliable way to take out Churchills (helpful when playing Germans, almost essential when Italians), although ammo stripping with your strategic bombers also makes them easier to handle.

There may be a couple of Matilda 2 with base strength 4 or 5 in earlier scenarios. As with the Churchills you might find that forcing surrender is the easiest or fastest way to destroy them even if you don't really need the prestige.
Well I looked through the Replays (and a few older ones without Italian Challenge) of the according Scenarios

I'm not sure if forcing a surrender on the Churchills is the fastest or easiest or SAFEST way to get rid of these menacing chunks of Metal Armor.

The Safest Way is of course an Attack with Tac Bombers as they have no Air Defense
For a Surrender there are several intangibles involved.

Time Pressure as in Turns left for the Scenario, you must have the according amount of Units in the vicinity of a Churchill to surround it, surpress it completely and of Course get a Shot away at it, without exposing the surrounding Units to outside Attacks. This works best when the Scenario is basically done and there are Churchills still around or if they get caught up in your Main Forces advancing.

The 2 Churchills Tanks in East Africa near Addis Abeba are a good example as they sit there and don't move at all Image it's a little different with the Tank Group in the center which is probably the one you mentioned in your post Image This is so early in the Scenario the RAF still a Threat and they basically block the march to the West to Khartum and Kurmuk. It's certainly possible to surround one or another of these Tanks, but at that early Stage of the Campaign i Go for the quick kill

In Arabia it's a bit different. I consider these 2 early Churchill involved in the Charge of the British Troops a major Threat, especially with so much 2nd Wave Tanks AT Guns and even AA and Arty involved. I want these 2 gone asap, and won't go for a surrender, (might be different if i would do a regular Afrika Korps Campaign at a lesser Difficulty again, then my Army may be so complete to just suck them up by then, but probably you won't need the Prestige on a lesser Difficulty anyway )

Also the one Churchill near Dschidda Imageblocks my fast advance West and I want Dschidda and the Airport firmly in Hand by the Time the RAF sends in its Waves into Combat, so here I pass as well especially with a few other Tanks lurking in the Southeast for a surprise Attack. The one in the Center of the Desert is the most likely candidate for a surrender Image
the RAF might be done by the Time, but it's a little bit to far in the Middle so I have to adjust the direction of the advance. I think it depends on how well and fast I break through the Early assaulting Front Line

In Persia the Brits sit in the Northeast in the Area of Teheran and Ghom and the 3 Churchills can be caught when you march up there maybe for the Final Assault.
Persia is a tricky beast though and it all depends how the Early Challenges and the Later "Surprise" Attacks are dealt with. If you get Lucky kill of the Air Attacks quickly pick up the Trucks in Time and maybe have a clear Path on the Americans in the Southeast, then there maybe Time to force any given Churchill into a surrender, most likely the one near Teheran. I have yet to manage this scenario efficiently enough to do this. Maybe I need to get a lot better to try or do Afrika Korps a few more times to have everything what happens in the back of my head.

Basra
The Churchill sits in the deep Southwest near the Airports.
If you have the Time and the Troops its certainly possible. I hate city sieges and generally I'm happy to solve them with minimal losses and as fast as I can, so I am not patient enough to send enough units to the Southwest to surround the Churchill and force him into surrender. So I bomb it relentlessly til it's gone. The Bombers and Fighters have to go to this Area frequently anyway to resupply and refuel.
So I block one of the Airfields with a Tiger and blast away with Air Units vs the Tanks there when it fits.

The Alam Halfa Churchill
I actually forced a surrender on this one in a replay, but this Scenario went pretty well in terms of time and success and so I was not in a hurry to seize the Final Victory Hexes in the North East and the Center

Well Bottom Line is

Churchills, Matildas even Cromwell are pretty easy Targets for Tac Bombers
except the Cromwell that has some serious Attack Strength the Matilda and the Churchill are tough customers when attacked by ground Units, but not very dangerous if they Attack themselves.
They are worth a thought for surrender all the Time, but I personally do not focus on that, and I won't arrange any troop advance to get in a position for it.

captainjack
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by captainjack » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:37 am

Thanks for the info. Not only did tac bombers work, but a year of so back I would have done exactly the same.

Collecting surrender prestige started as a bit of a personal challenge but now I use it as a tool for getting rid of powerful units in a single attack with minimal risk to my own troops. Any prestige gain is a handy bonus, but with a downside that if you try too hard to force surrender you can lose focus on other objectives.

My current preference for strat bombers over tac bombers makes it relatively easy to engineer surrenders and may not work well otherwise. It is probably also worth noting that it is a much higher risk strategy if you use full random instead of dice chess.

As mentioned before, it was a good report and I picked up some good tips on the way.

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:06 am

Final AAR for Scenario British India updated and completed


Also linked the Replays for the Afrika Korps on Rommel Italian Challenge with all German Units sold off and just Italian Units + the 6 British Capturables not allowed to be updated

here Aftermath

hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:26 pm

hurly wrote:

Afrika Korps on Rommel Italian Challenge with all German Units sold off and just Italian Units + the 6 British Capturables not allowed to be updated
Campaign now Complete and all Replays available


here Aftermath

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Re: Hurly's 2nd Offensive

Post by goose_2 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:58 pm

hurly wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:25 am
Boxing Day or 2. Weihnachtstag in German so a Scenario named Second Offensive is fitting


Sixth Scenario

Second Offensive Results

17 Core Units allowed 22 Turns


Comments
This one is tricky in a few ways.
The briefing tells you to retreat to El Agheila as quickly as possible and wait for Reinforcements.
It's not telling you there is a Turn Limit for Capturing El Agheila (I think it's Turn 10 not sure about that) If you capture El Agheila after the Turn Limit or at the End of the Scenario which is not only possible, but maybe a little bit more relaxing if you stop the British onslaught in the Center of the Map first, then you will still get a horde of Auxiliary Reinforcements but none are keepers. So I strongly recommend to split forces and capture El Agheila before Turn 10 and you will get 3 very good Units that will serve you well for hte Rest of the Campaign.
It's also tricky cause you have to make a Stand in the Desert versus the All Out Rush of the Brits with plenty of Tanks and Infantry and a few Recons while along the Coast Line in a Bottleneck position you have to withstand an Attack with a Matilda plus several artillery and Infantry coming over the Mountains from the South. All this with a quite respectable Number of RAF Units attacking from Above.

And of Course the AI goes First here again so don't expose Artillery on the Front Lines
You have only 17 Core Units allowed so several Units have to sit on the Bench and in a completely unrelated Coincidence General Hurly benched the mobile AA unit braccada endorsed in his posting above in the Run 1 fighting. So as this seems like a stubborn General ignoring the advice of the Master of Controll and Efficiency in Fact it is not as the Actual Fighting was done some time ago and this is just the AFTER Action Report for all other Strategy Buffs to read


The scenario itself
I had two quite different approaches for Run 1 and Team Red

The Run 1 Core already has 4 SE Units by now and can go with a Total of 21 Units into this scenario. So Run 1 uses Golden Hurly Rule of Thumb (Overstrength only for Artillery and AA and no Elite Replacements for all other Units in the Deploy Phase if it costs more than 100 Prestige per Unit)
I made 2 exceptions for that as General wanted the Matilda defnding the Coast Line Bottleneck as strong as possible and it received 1 Overstrength plus the SE Fighter from Last Scenario gets a 1 Overstrength as well.

Team Red with just the 2 SE Units rewarded in the last Scenario at hand has only 19 Units to go with and goes All in with Overstrength for every Unit deployed in the Scenario (I will mark Overstrength with a + for each Overstrength Point

Still the Basic tactics are quite Similar for Both Runs
Image
The Matilda is the Unit that can take the hardest Beating, Back it up with an Artillery Unit a Pz Grenadier to protect the City of Barce and an AA Unit as Protection for Air Attacks. These 4 Units can withstand the Pressure for a long Time and ideally once they get into trouble the Reinforcements have arrived and the Momentum will change.

Run 1 gave the Return to El Agheila a moderate Priority and aims for a Just in Time approach approximately at Turn 9 and defends the Desert Attack of the Brits quite ferociously.
Team Red made the Return to El Agheila Top Priority to overcame the Shortness of Available Units and even supports the Return to El Agheila with several Air Units. The defending in the heart of the Desert has to be done a little bit more in controlled Retreat mode

Both strategies work and once you get the massive Amount of Reinforcements the Tides of the Scenario is reversed

In the end it is essential to keep alive all Defenders in the Middle and at the Coast Line, weaken or reduce the RAF as much as possible and once the Second Offensive starts collect all the Hexes and Cities on the Map while completely erasing the British troops from the Map. You have to restrain from taking the Last Victory Hex with a few turns to go or you may miss some Run and Gun Experience Building in the East as well as some Prestige for the Non Victory Hexes

In the End a challenging scenario only in the Beginning, once the Reinforcements arrive it's a matter of discipline to get the Decisive Victory with the maximum Prestige taken and Unit Experience stocked with minimal losses

*Key in this Scenario is getting the 3 Goodies 2 Self Propelled Italian Artillery Units (1 with a Mov +1 Hero, the other with a huge Att +5 hero) and a Breda bomber (with Att +3 Hero). The Breda itself is nothing special but it can be upgraded into a SM79 Tac Bomber (like most Italian Units in the Family and very Cheap) and will be a very good Unit for the Rest of the Way to India (this is true also if you play Afrika Korps in Vanilla Style, the SM 79 starting with Att +3 will be one of your better Units and can justify its Presence vs any German Tac Bomber)

Several heroes awarded (info added to the Results table) this time again one Double Heroes for Team Red Pz Grenadier Mg 8 Battallion
Image





Run 1

Starting Prestige 1834 PP (No new Units bought, No upgrades, Overstrength Units for SE Fighter, AA and the Matilda as well as the StuG and one Italian Arty)

Starting Lineups (only Core Units)
(Kills/ Losses Scenario)
Kills/ Losses Campaign


Mg Battallion 2 German PzGren with Half Track Transport
Image Image Hero awarded Att+2
(12/5)
105/25

MG Battalion 8 German PzGren with Half Track Transport
Image Image Hero awarded Def +1
(37/9)
114/15

27th Brescia Bersaglieri
Image
(0/0)
20/3

27th Brescia Bersaglieri
Image
(0/0)
9/8

8th Bersaglieri Bersaglieri with Truck
Image Image
(24/3)
52/15

2. Abt Panzer German Panzer II Flamm
Image Hero awarded Def +1
(28/3)
163/34

1. Abt Panzer German Panzer III J
Image Hero awarded Mov+1 Hero awarded Spo +1
(53/8)
188/35

132nd Ariete Italian M13/41 Tank
Image Hero awarded Def +2 Att+2
(34/10)
151/26

132nd Ariete Italian M13/41 Tank
Image Hero awarded Ini +1
(0/0)
108/25

Recon Abt. 3 German 232 Rad Recon
Image Hero awarded Att+1
(17/11)
96/42

PzJäger Abt.39 German 5cm Pak + Truck
Image Image
(20/10)
37/25

PzJäger Abt.605 German PzJäger 1B
Image
(0/0)
77/36

1. Abt Arti 75 German 15cm + Truck
Image Image
(15/7)
70/10

55th Artill Italian 14,9cm + Truck
Image Image
(6/0)
57/5

Flak Batt 606 German SdKfz 7/1
Image
(0/0)
35/11

Stormo Italian Mc 202 Folgore
Image Hero awarded Sp +1
(20/2)
107/13

Bought Units in the Campaign

I. Artill Italian 14,9cm + Truck ++
Image Image Hero awarded Att+2 Hero awarded Att+2
(28/5)
91/8

12. AA Italian 90cm + Truck +
Image Image Hero awarded Mov +1
(25/7)
68/7

10. Tac Bomber SM79
Image Hero awarded Def +1 Hero awarded Def +1
(22/1)
91/2

11. Strat Bomber Piaggio
Image
(4/7)
29/19

Recon Sahariana
Image
(16/4)
41/7

SE Units

14. SE Pz SE Panzer III J
Image Hero awarded Ini +1
(27/0)
137/28

2. SE PZ SE Panzer IV F
Image
(24/8)
68/15

Reward SE PZ SE Panzer III J
Image
(47/9)
50/16

Reward Fighter SE Bf 109 F +
Image
(47/0)
52/0

Captured Units

Captured Matilda 2 +
Image
(45/7)
70/10

Reward StuG III B +
Image
(19/8)
20/13

Captured Crusader
Image
(0/0)
0/0

5.Art (Mov+1) Self Propelled 75/18 Hero Mov +1
Image
(4/2)

5.Art (Att +5) Self Propelled 75/18 Hero Att +5
Image
(1/0)

5.Tac (Att +3) Breda Hero Att +3
Image
(10/5)



Team RED

Starting Prestige 1935 PP (No new units, No Upgrades, Overstrength for every Unit)


Starting Lineups (only Core Units)
(Kills/ Losses Scenario)
Kills/ Losses Campaign


Mg Battallion 2 German PzGren with Half Track Transport ++
Image Image Hero awarded Mov +1
(13/4)
112/14

MG Battalion 8 German PzGren with Half Track Transport
Image Image Hero awarded Att +1 Def +1
(37/13)
124/30

27th Brescia Bersaglieri with Truck
Image Image
(0/0)
77/15

27th Brescia Bersaglieri
Image
(0/0)
7/6

8th Bersaglieri Italian Bersaglieri with Truck
Image Image
(0/0)
54/17

2. Abt Panzer German Panzer II Flamm +++
Image Hero Awarded Att +2 Hero awarded Att +2 Hero awarded Ini +1
(63/5)
266/29

1. Abt Panzer German Panzer III J ++
Image Hero awarded Def +1 Mov +1
(63/4)
228/28

132nd Ariete Italian M13/41 Tank
Image Hero awarded Def +2
(22/1)
143/26

132nd Ariete Italian M13/41 Tank
Image Hero awarded Def +2
(26/2)
126/26

Recon Abt. 3 German 232 Rad Recon ++
Image
(21/5)
87/30

PzJäger Abt.39 German 5cm Pak + Truck
Image Image Hero awarded Def +1
(0/0)
72/16

PzJäger Abt.605 German PzJäger 1B +
Image Hero awarded Def +1
(39/12)
136/66

1. Abt Arti 75 German 10,5cm + Truck upgraded to 15cm +++
Image Image
(23/8)
57/17

55th Artill Italian 14,9cm + Truck +++
Image Image Hero awarded Att +1
(17/0)
75/1

Flak Batt 606 German SdKfz 7/1 ++
Image Hero awarded Def +2
(33/3)
121/6

Stormo Italian Mc 202 Folgore ++
Image
(25/0)
102/21

Bought Units in the Campaign

I. Artill Italian 14,9cm + Truck ++
Image Image Hero awarded Def +1
(9/0)
72/1

12. Artill Italian 14,9cm + Truck
Image Image
(0/0)
46/3

10. Tac Bomber SM79 +++
Image Hero awarded Att +1 Hero awarded Def +2
(79/0)
187/8

11. Strat Bomber Piaggio ++
Image
(7/0)
22/16

SE Units

Reward SE PZ SE Panzer III J +
Image
(43/1)
54/4

Reward Fighter SE Bf 109 F +
Image
(41/0)
58/0


Captured Units

Captured Matilda 2 ++
Image Hero awarded Att +1
(36/4)
90/8

Reward StuG III B +
Image
(14/3)
17/5

Captured Crusader
Image
(0/0)
0/0

5.Art (Mov+1) Self Propelled 75/18 Hero Mov +1
Image
(3/0)

5.Art (Att +5) Self Propelled 75/18 Hero Att +5
Image
(3/0)

5.Tac (Att +3) Breda Hero Att +3
Image
(17/3)


Different Approach both ways worked out



Replay File for Run 1 (Reconstructed from a savegame in Turn 10 just after the Reinforcements arrive)
Replay File for Team Red (Reconstructed from a savegame in Turn 15)
This was very helpful in my research.

Thanks for doing this Hurly and for reminding me about it in my new Playthrough... 2 Fighters is all I have and 1 Italian AA 1 German Mobil AA. If it worked for you, it should work for me. RIGHT? ;)
goose_2
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hurly
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:24 pm

This was very helpful in my research.

Thanks for doing this Hurly and for reminding me about it in my new Playthrough... 2 Fighters is all I have and 1 Italian AA 1 German Mobil AA. If it worked for you, it should work for me. RIGHT? ;)
You are always welcome

I don't know if something that worked for me will work for you though

Remember my heritage is German, so maybe that means I can channel my inner Rommel a little bit more than you :wink:

But GENERALly speaking in cliches
Of course it will work for you Seargeant Goose, ABTRRRRRETEN !

If you want to research a little deeper I recommend looking into the Aftermath listed Replays

Because there are ONLY Italian Units (+the 6 Allied Gimme Units)and NO SE UNITS involved, I can guarantee what works in this Run will work for sure for a "CUSTOM" Italian Challenge with German Core and SE Units + the Chance to Improve the Allied Stuff.

What I can not say is how much your self imposed limitation of max 2 Pieces per Unit Type will affect the outcome
I know I heavily relied on Italian Arty and with so very few different units in the Stock this can cause trouble.

Question regarding your 2 Piece Limit
What happens if you have 2 Units like Tanks or Fighters Eg 2 SE Bf 109 awarded already and the Game gives you another one ? Use it or Sell it asap ?
Or is this a Limit for Stuff you buy from the Weapon Stack only like AA, Arty or Bombers ? I list only these 3 as I don't see it happen with other Stuff.
Anyway Arty Variation might bite you the hardest as these SP Italian are really great


just made a quick list of what i had in this All Italian Run

Arty
6 towed 105mm. 1 149mm, 4 SP 105mm (the Bigger Ones), 1 Brummbär (you need to find some alternative for the 105mm, SP is easy as you can use the small SP ones)

AA
3 towed 90mm (Variation easy here as the 75mm is not really a slouch plus you have that German Mobile AA)

Tanks
3 Italian Panthers and the Allied Stuff (1 Panther is not too hard to spare into the Latest Italian Model, but there are most likely plenty of German Tanks available through SE gimmies)

Fighters
I have stormo sitting in a Veltro and a another Italian Fighter also a Veltro plus the Spitfire you get in Malta

Tac Bombers
3 Italian SM79 (2 bought one awarded) and two late Additions HS129 (biggest Prob here no Chance to vary a lot as the HS129 is only available so late in the Campaign

Strat Bombers
3 Piaggios (not sure but I think one is a Green Unit for the Final Scenario for Fighting the numerous Royal Navy Pieces)

plus 1 Sahariana serving Double Duty as Infantry at Times and you will hate that 1 Bersaglieri
which means basically I employed almost no Infantry at All and the 3 Italian Units you get from the Get Go are enough.

Now you have to decide how much this approach will work for your style.
But with the Given German Core Units and the SE Units there is enough Slots that give you room for Variation

Another Question

is a German Brummbär, Bf109k, Panther and HS129 the same as as a Italian labeled equal Unit for your 2 Count Rule or not ? Means you can probably pony up 4 of each unit if the budget is there
Not very relevant for the Panther and most likely not for the 109k as there are better German units at the time.

At least you have your always present "How many Fighters do I need ?" Question answered
3 is good enough if you use them in a defensive Mode and otherwise Snap the Trap with them plus AA guns

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by goose_2 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:54 pm

hurly wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:24 pm
This was very helpful in my research.

Thanks for doing this Hurly and for reminding me about it in my new Playthrough... 2 Fighters is all I have and 1 Italian AA 1 German Mobil AA. If it worked for you, it should work for me. RIGHT? ;)
You are always welcome

I don't know if something that worked for me will work for you though

Remember my heritage is German, so maybe that means I can channel my inner Rommel a little bit more than you :wink:

But GENERALly speaking in cliches
Of course it will work for you Seargeant Goose, ABTRRRRRETEN !

If you want to research a little deeper I recommend looking into the Aftermath listed Replays

Because there are ONLY Italian Units (+the 6 Allied Gimme Units)and NO SE UNITS involved, I can guarantee what works in this Run will work for sure for a "CUSTOM" Italian Challenge with German Core and SE Units + the Chance to Improve the Allied Stuff.

What I can not say is how much your self imposed limitation of max 2 Pieces per Unit Type will affect the outcome
I know I heavily relied on Italian Arty and with so very few different units in the Stock this can cause trouble.

Question regarding your 2 Piece Limit
What happens if you have 2 Units like Tanks or Fighters Eg 2 SE Bf 109 awarded already and the Game gives you another one ? Use it or Sell it asap ?
Or is this a Limit for Stuff you buy from the Weapon Stack only like AA, Arty or Bombers ? I list only these 3 as I don't see it happen with other Stuff.
Anyway Arty Variation might bite you the hardest as these SP Italian are really great


just made a quick list of what i had in this All Italian Run

Arty
6 towed 105mm. 1 149mm, 4 SP 105mm (the Bigger Ones), 1 Brummbär (you need to find some alternative for the 105mm, SP is easy as you can use the small SP ones)

AA
3 towed 90mm (Variation easy here as the 75mm is not really a slouch plus you have that German Mobile AA)

Tanks
3 Italian Panthers and the Allied Stuff (1 Panther is not too hard to spare into the Latest Italian Model, but there are most likely plenty of German Tanks available through SE gimmies)

Fighters
I have stormo sitting in a Veltro and a another Italian Fighter also a Veltro plus the Spitfire you get in Malta

Tac Bombers
3 Italian SM79 (2 bought one awarded) and two late Additions HS129 (biggest Prob here no Chance to vary a lot as the HS129 is only available so late in the Campaign

Strat Bombers
3 Piaggios (not sure but I think one is a Green Unit for the Final Scenario for Fighting the numerous Royal Navy Pieces)

plus 1 Sahariana serving Double Duty as Infantry at Times and you will hate that 1 Bersaglieri
which means basically I employed almost no Infantry at All and the 3 Italian Units you get from the Get Go are enough.

Now you have to decide how much this approach will work for your style.
But with the Given German Core Units and the SE Units there is enough Slots that give you room for Variation

Another Question

is a German Brummbär, Bf109k, Panther and HS129 the same as as a Italian labeled equal Unit for your 2 Count Rule or not ? Means you can probably pony up 4 of each unit if the budget is there
Not very relevant for the Panther and most likely not for the 109k as there are better German units at the time.

At least you have your always present "How many Fighters do I need ?" Question answered
3 is good enough if you use them in a defensive Mode and otherwise Snap the Trap with them plus AA guns

I appreciate the detailed response, and I have been preparing for the 2nd Offensive...
Unfortunately both videos online that go over the 2nd Offensive, Braccada's, and Frontline's, both do it wrong, imho, because they did not rush back to El Agheilia to seize it quickly so you get the extra units to help with the counter attack. I want/need those Italian SP arty's.

With that said, I have already purchased 1 M40 as I to love those SP arty's. (So after 2nd Offensive I will have 3 in my roster.)
So in order to stick to my no more than 2 of any single unit I see myself upgrading the +1 Movement arty to a towed artillery. Probably the 105mm.

Around the other units, I have the 1 Italian Fighter, 1 SE Bf-109F and that is it until I can get the Spitfire awarded in Malta.

These 3 Fighters will be the backbone of my airforce. I have that SE Bf-110 that I will also use as a finish up Fighter as needed.
You indicate having a 2nd Italian Fighter...but if I remember you highly recommended against that my first playthrough. Are you thinking differently now? If so why?

In terms of arty I plan on the following:
2 75mm artys
2 105mm arty's
2 155mm artys
2 M40's
2 M-43's
1StuG3B
1 sIG2

That seems to be enough, even for me.

AA's 2 Italian 88's and 1 German AA, unsure if I will keep mobile or switch to an 88, I will wait until I am awarded 1st hero to decide. +1 Movment it will become an 88.
May get some weaker Italian AA's but probably not.

Inf is what it is, but I like using Italian inf as they are uber cheap. Will upgrade as needed.

2 Saharianna's, love arty and what it can do as both recon and inf.
1 German recon will be my good one to tap units already suppressed.

Strat Bombers 1 piaggo for now, may get 2nd but that will be it of course.

I have an SE Tac Bomber, will be awarded another Tac Bomber and may buy another one later on, not sure. Thoughts?

Tanks are what they are, I have 2 Italian Tanks, I do not see myself purchasing anymore as these are doing quite well, and 1 has a +1 Movement, the other has +2 Att or +2 Def I forget, so both doing very well with 2 stars of experience. (Love that 100% experience)

I have 2 SE panzers 1Pz3H that is waiting for a true upgrade to either N or L, and 1 Flamm.

The rest will be supplemented by captured equipment, but for this go around I will be using Panthers, Tigers, and Pz4's, and maybe even some Pz3's as will not be fielding all Tigers based on the 2 units limit.

My goal is to kind of keep somewhere around 1000 prestige at the beginning of each scenario as replacements might prove necessary, but trying my best to avoid in scenario replacements. The 25% prestige really bites but makes me very cognizant of every point to try and build a buffer for upgrades and possible overstrength opportunities.

I need to start 2nd Offensive soon, because I am 1 post away from being out of Afrika Korps posts.

I keep thinking about both playthroughs...I like the idea of positioning a force around Benghazi to stymie the advance, but since I will be retreating as fast as possible, I see myself not trying to hold a single area but simply falling back attacking vulnerable units that crash into me, but other wise seizing El Agheila quickly to then pivot and swing back around against their overstretched army.

Thoughts as always are appreciated.
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by hurly » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:06 am

You indicate having a 2nd Italian Fighter...but if I remember you highly recommended against that my first playthrough. Are you thinking differently now? If so why?
Not exactly a change of Thinking, it's more of a Timing issue.

The Unit Lineup I listed above is for the Final Mission British India. With all decisive Victories throughout die Campaign

From the Top of my Head I can't say when that 3rd Fighter was added, but it is more important to grow and develop the AA Guns as Early as possible.
Develop the AA Guns Early so their Impact later is utter destructive for the RAF.
In the All Italian Army Fighters are primarily there for Air Cover, Traps and Clean Up Shots. You just can not go head to head in a Fight with experienced Spitfires, Tempests fighters let alone that pesky Meteor in Scenario 20. And the Russian and US Planes in their spare appearences are no Fun either. Basically they are a defensive Support Unit und Not the Air Supremacy Rulers of the Skies the Luftwaffe employs
But you Need the strong AA Guns to chew up the Allied Fighters or you might be in Trouble in some later Scenarios

And it is a good Training for your Groundbound Soviet Corps tendencies in your Future Plans :wink:



Back to this
These 3 Fighters will be the backbone of my airforce. I have that SE Bf-110 that I will also use as a finish up Fighter as needed.
You indicate having a 2nd Italian Fighter...but if I remember you highly recommended against that my first playthrough. Are you thinking differently now? If so why?
I looked up your former AAR From Afrika Korps (which is a long Time ago, for Old Farts like You and Me maybe too long)

You First asked the Question if I would recommend a 2nd Italian Fighters right After Scenario 2 Ras el Maduaar

Without giving Away Spoilers at this Point, but knowing you will get a BF 109 in Dash to the Wire and a Spitfire in Malta Plus a very Good Chance for a Random SE Fighter down the road I could Not recommend buying One at this Point of the Campaign.

You bought One anyway.

Then you butchered the Hangar Task in Dash to the Wire Missing the Gimmies especially the Bf109.

At that Point i was Not sure if that blow would severely Hurt your whole Campaign and chances to finish it at all.

So I started this All Italian Campaign without SE Units as an Experiment and to See where and when some improvising is necessary.

Basically I Emulated your Early Air Force Setup to get a Grip for the Situation
Said and Done knowing I would ditch any Random SE Unit and going with only Italian Units, I knew Stormo and the Malta Spitfire is all I will be Awarded for the Campaign
So I bought that 2nd Italian Fighter for Battleaxe and Go in with that Italian Goose Emulation. As it turned out Stormo, the Italian Fighter and Maltese Spitty could handle any Fighter Task Til the very End of the Campaign with the Support of up to 3 90mm towed AA Guns. So my Coaching Ideas are very consistent and that is what I told you halfway through the Campaign and recommended no more Green Italian Fighters. This Advice was Backed by Cerberus and Braccada just to mention it

Of course your Thirst for some additional Drama made you lose Stormo in Persia replaced by a Green Centauro Fighter in between the Scenario.

But in the End you still finished the Regular Italian Challenge employing 3 Fighters as well as I could finish the Only Italian Challenge with 3 Fighters.
And towed AA saved the Day for You and Me. Since Difficulty of Gameplay is basically still the same Now in your new Quest I just don't See where this Manic Urge to buy Extra Fighters comes from.
Must be something picked up from your current Prez. Repeat the same nonsense over and over again and sooner or later no one realizes anymore it was a nonsense Idea From the Beginning

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by Elkarlo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:22 am

Wow love the detail for the units and heros.
I'm doing the Italian campaign too. Do you get a bf 109 ever? Man the Italian planes just aren't very good against the British

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by goose_2 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56 pm

Elkarlo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:22 am
Wow love the detail for the units and heros.
I'm doing the Italian campaign too. Do you get a bf 109 ever? Man the Italian planes just aren't very good against the British
You can be awarded SE-Bf-109's, and in Dash to the Wire if you take out the 4 Hangers in the South you are awarded with an SE Bf-109F.

So in my current Double Rommel playthrough I have an SE Bf-109 and the Spitfire that I was awarded in Malta changed to an FW-190, Stormo in a Veltro and a CR.42 Falco that I am babying to get to 2 stars so I can upgrade him to a Centauro when that becomes available.

I am at Basra, and will probably be going for that battle this weekend.

Italian Fighters struggle, but because I am playing with these crippling restrictions you learn to love them for what they can do.
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by captainjack » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:02 am

Got to be impressed by someone using a biplane fighter at this stage AND aiming for 2*. That's kind of impressive no matter what prestige setting you are using.

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by Elkarlo » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:06 am

Ok thanks. The Italian challenge is hard. The tanks get roughed up, even by infantry. And that airforce isn't bad, but it takes AAA to stop the British.
Thanks for the tips, hopefully I can replay some battles and get some better equipment via capturing stuff

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by goose_2 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:51 pm

captainjack wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:02 am
Got to be impressed by someone using a biplane fighter at this stage AND aiming for 2*. That's kind of impressive no matter what prestige setting you are using.
Buying that Bi-Plane when I did was, I have to say, one of the wisest choices I have ever made in the game. Because I used him to take out mines in Syria. The enemy never spotted him, and this allowed him to slowly nick his way to 1 star. In Iraq, I used him in a similar way after I eliminated the air threat, and suppressed the airfield. Now I am about to start Basra which is the perfect training ground for kills for your airforce. After that first days counter attack. You eliminate all the enemies air force, and that is it, you have free reign in the sky, so when the Para's come in, and come in, and come in. Your aa and air force have a field day ripping up those vulnerable planes, in fact I will not be a bit surprised if I see the Bi-Plane actually get awarded a hero. :P

Just in time to upgrade him to a Centauro in Persia.

So glad I bought that little guy.
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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by captainjack » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:40 am

Nice plan getting for getting exp and heroes on your biplane. I think you have just created a biplane challenge with an ultimate goal of a 5* biplane that's never been upgraded....
I will be including Gladiators in my British mod, but the rate I'm going it will be 2025 by the time it's done so might be late for that.
It's always good to see how people find ways to use with less popular units (I recall you had a Panzer 1 well after most people would have scrapped it).

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Re: Afrika Korps - Italian Challenge on Rommel

Post by goose_2 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:16 pm

captainjack wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:40 am
Nice plan getting for getting exp and heroes on your biplane. I think you have just created a biplane challenge with an ultimate goal of a 5* biplane that's never been upgraded....
I will be including Gladiators in my British mod, but the rate I'm going it will be 2025 by the time it's done so might be late for that.
It's always good to see how people find ways to use with less popular units (I recall you had a Panzer 1 well after most people would have scrapped it).
Yeah, I had a Pz 1b that I used in my Super Hard playthrough that I worked hard to get a 3rd star of experience, despite fighting with 25% experience. I was using him in 1942 to get that 3rd star and then was holding onto him until I could upgrade him to a Tiger in Tatsinskaya. I ended up abandoning that playthrough for my other playthrough's in Tatsinskaya, as it finally broke me. ;)

Good Memory. ;)
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