Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

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orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by orlinos » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:24 am

I started ’39 again. I haven’t yet tried the combat recons, but dedicated recons seem to work great. I used the auxiliary one in Lodz to take the first airport fast – so that I could refuel my Stukas there and deal with the AT counterattack.

It was harder for the AI to kill it in the beginning, but it lost its ammo quickly and died soon after. It gave me enough time to bombard the Polish AT and cavalry and maintain control of the airport – but that’s it. It was no super-unit. And I wouldn’t abuse my core recon in that way, too expensive.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:46 am

I think the recon units are working quite well for the German player. If you try to fight with dedicated recon units like your tanks, you will probably lose them. There are still some quirks, like the recon units are actually more vulnerable to units like French infantry, but unfortunately there is no good way for me to resolve this. Fortunately, recon balancing works nearly perfectly after 1941, which is when the real action begins anyway.

The first combat recon model is pretty bad, as it has the same gun as the dedicated recon model. BUT, in 1943, you can upgrade to one with 8 SA and 7 HA, which is a surprisingly good unit for taking out all those pesky Russian infantry in the open, or for killing stuff like artillery/suppressed AT guns.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by orlinos » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:35 am

The quirks you mention are not bad, the French infantry is also very dangerous to my tanks, even in the open. I avoid them anyway.

The +2 boost to movement for wheeled recons is extremely handy. Especially in France, where there are many roads and it is easy to navigate them back and forth. Almost too easy. Not that I'm complaining!
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:18 pm

orlinos wrote:The quirks you mention are not bad, the French infantry is also very dangerous to my tanks, even in the open. I avoid them anyway.

The +2 boost to movement for wheeled recons is extremely handy. Especially in France, where there are many roads and it is easy to navigate them back and forth. Almost too easy. Not that I'm complaining!
Infantry is only dangerous to tank because of unlucky rolls. I think the current balance is fine. If you watch my videos in 1940, it's quite obvious that there is plenty of good luck for the player too. The British infantry are actually more dangerous to tanks, since they have HA = 2. Also, an experienced Panzer IVD will wreck infantry in the open without any problems.

As for wheeled recon moving fast, I think it's a very positive change. In Manstein's wartime memoirs, he talks about his campaign in France where he commanded an infantry corps and only had recon forces as mobile units. He used them to dash ahead to forward objectives, Guderian/Rommel-style, and it was very effective at preventing the French from regrouping and setting up defenses. So it sounds like this is working as intended too.

nvett
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by nvett » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:49 pm

Deducter

Just a quick note to let you know I have restarted with your mod after reading this thread and your notes and agreeing with your concept. 3/4 through 39 on Rommel I love the feel of every purchase/reinforcement requiring thoughtfulness and strategic foresight, as well as looking at all units in a new light.

Many thanks

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by orlinos » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:02 pm

Plus one point to AT close defense DOES matter, at least in terms of AI resistance. The easy Poznan scenario became more difficult now. I used to kill those Polish AT in towns easily, often even without using artillery. Now they put up a fight.

Ouch!
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:40 pm

nvett wrote:Deducter

Just a quick note to let you know I have restarted with your mod after reading this thread and your notes and agreeing with your concept. 3/4 through 39 on Rommel I love the feel of every purchase/reinforcement requiring thoughtfulness and strategic foresight, as well as looking at all units in a new light.

Many thanks
Sounds good. I'm happy to hear any feedback/suggestion. Keep in mind the bulk of the changes apply after 1941 and especially after 1943, which feels like a new experience with these files.
orlinos wrote:Plus one point to AT close defense DOES matter, at least in terms of AI resistance. The easy Poznan scenario became more difficult now. I used to kill those Polish AT in towns easily, often even without using artillery. Now they put up a fight.

Ouch!
I guess I don't notice too much because I always use artillery/bombers on AT guns anyway. Rarely do I feel the pressure to attack without softening a unit, at least in 1939-1942. But I'm glad that there is a noticeable difference for some, so AT guns don't feel like a complete walk-over for infantry.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:20 pm

I'm about ready to make another round of tweaks and changes for this mod. Changes include removing the sideskirts from the Panzer IVJ, slightly lowering the GD of the StuG IIIG, Panzer IVH, Panzer IVJ, and the T-34/85 thus making the Panther armor more impressive relatively speaking, tweaking the INI of certain Soviet AT guns, and fixing a few inconsistencies.

One thing I've been thinking of doing is changing the ahistorical KV-5 to the T-34/57. It is possible to do this by changing its icon (I'd change it to the T-34/40 icon, since I don't want to introduce new graphics atm) and stats. This would, however, make engaging the scenarios with that unit quite a bit easier, plus the icon change would generate confusion. I'm still debating this change, since even though the KV-5 is ahistorical, I think it is fine as a special "boss" unit to engage.

4kEY
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by 4kEY » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:53 am

Will we see an F/2 icon when you lift up her skirt, deducter?

Lowering GD of the units you mentioned is bold and innovative, deducter. I am nearly done with '45 East with enemy general exp set at 450 - 550. I am looking forward to using your mod. I have implemented MANY additional camos to my eqp file. A current side project I have is re-arranging everything in a eqp file copy so that when finished they will appear ordered in the purchase screen. With your file I will input everything all at once in proper order.

I spend more time finding and deciding what camos to use than I do on deployment :oops:

edit: I sort of like the panic of encountering KV-5 spam in '42, and the getting the crap knocked out of me that follows :mrgreen: Though I've learned to expect and prepare for it.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:22 am

4kEY wrote:Will we see an F/2 icon when you lift up her skirt, deducter?
Yes, since I'm not introducing new graphics (to avoid requiring the GME). The idea behind this is to make sure that the PzIVH and the PzIVJ even more distinct. The Ausf. H is the better tank, with slightly better INI and CD, but is more expensive and has much less fuel, while the Ausf. J is cheaper but still effective.

Lowering GD of the units you mentioned is bold and innovative, deducter. I am nearly done with '45 East with enemy general exp set at 450 - 550. I am looking forward to using your mod. I have implemented MANY additional camos to my eqp file. A current side project I have is re-arranging everything in a eqp file copy so that when finished they will appear ordered in the purchase screen. With your file I will input everything all at once in proper order.
Actually this isn't a bold move. I'm merely restoring them to their original values of 16. I had increased the GD of the Panzer IVH and the StuG IIIG to 17 on account of the anti-magnetic mine coating that those AFVs received, but ultimately I decided that it was rather silly and that value is probably best reflected in the CD anyway. Plus, I wanted to make the Panther armor more impressive relatively (GD = 19/20 vs 16 for the PzIV and 17 for the T-34/85).

I also think you'll find with these equipment file changes, there's no need to buff the AI anymore.

edit: I sort of like the panic of encountering KV-5 spam in '42, and the getting the crap knocked out of me that follows :mrgreen: Though I've learned to expect and prepare for it.
There was an error in one of the pre-1.7 equipment files that allowed the Soviets to buy KV-5 in 1942, which was completely unintended. You can actually see this in my Escape from Stalingrad Video. This has since been fixed. The KV-5 is basically a "boss" unit that shows up from time to time, which while ahistorical, I think is fine.

4kEY
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by 4kEY » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:44 pm

I see. "bold and innovative", relative to my experience, which does not yet include your eqp file, deducter. I have one IVJ in '45 East, and I like it. I already have to be very careful with it. It has a janitor role, along with my StugIV's, Jagdpanzers and Hetzer. Speaking of StugIV, I've added it to the artillery section to allow me to field more AT capable units. If I remember previous discussions elsewhere in the forum, this isn't a very popular idea :oops: I mean, :mrgreen:

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:00 am

Almost done with the latest version. Most of the changes will be small tweaks and various consistency fixes.

There is one large component I'm introducing though, which is that German strategic bombers will be much more expensive in 1943. The reason is that my playtesting shows that an experienced, 14-strength 4 star strategic bomber are good too relative to an equivalent 14-strength 4 tactical bombers like the Ju 87G and the Fw 190F, mostly because of the low price of the strategic bombers like the He 111 and the Ju 88. Those units can hit the tough IS-1/IS-2/ISU-122 without fear of retaliation and exhaust the ammo of those units. They are also much more resistant to ground fire. The strategic bombers also gain experience extremely quickly.

I think a basic model like the He 111H will be around 600-650 and the most expensive He 177 will be about 1100-1200, with the others somewhere in between. The more advanced models will start out more expensive even in 1942, but the Do 17, He 111H, and the Ju 88 needs to be more expensive in 1943.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by orlinos » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:06 pm

deducter wrote:There is one large component I'm introducing though, which is that German strategic bombers will be much more expensive in 1943.
Glad to hear the changes start from 1943 - the prices would kill my army earlier on.

I've got a question on the Sevastopol Assault scenario. At the time you were making your AAR video, was it before you downgraded the Naval Attack on strategic bombers? I think I never scored a DV on this scenario, but I used to be able to get an MV after a long fight. During this playthrough (and I did learn a lot since the last one) - I already lost three times.

Now, part of this is probably due to my bad tactics - I think I should attack more aggressively from the right flank. But I hope those did improve! I have severe problems dealing with the Russian fleet. I have three strategic and two tactical bombers – plus an auxiliary bomber, but it still takes me a long time to kill the fleet. And I have to keep bombarding the forts at the same time.

I think I’m gone to score another loss. :wink:
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deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:11 pm

orlinos wrote:
deducter wrote:There is one large component I'm introducing though, which is that German strategic bombers will be much more expensive in 1943.
Glad to hear the changes start from 1943 - the prices would kill my army earlier on.

I've got a question on the Sevastopol Assault scenario. At the time you were making your AAR video, was it before you downgraded the Naval Attack on strategic bombers? I think I never scored a DV on this scenario, but I used to be able to get an MV after a long fight. During this playthrough (and I did learn a lot since the last one) - I already lost three times.

Now, part of this is probably due to my bad tactics - I think I should attack more aggressively from the right flank. But I hope those did improve! I have severe problems dealing with the Russian fleet. I have three strategic and two tactical bombers – plus an auxiliary bomber, but it still takes me a long time to kill the fleet. And I have to keep bombarding the forts at the same time.

I think I’m gone to score another loss. :wink:
The video was made after I reduced the NA on strategic bombers, that feature was in from the very beginning of this mod. Sevastopol Siege was designed to be "hard mode" scenario, so its difficulty is meant to be high, and this is especially true with the changes I made. The fact is, you will need probably 4-5 14-strength 4-star infantry and lots of overstrength/elite artillery to get a DV on this map. I don't think MV should be that hard to achieve though.

The best advice I can give is that you need to shift your forces down south to assault the city from the east ASAP. Getting bogged down in the northern/central part of the city will cost you precious time which you need to make DV.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:16 pm

Also I will probably have to increase strategic bomber costs in 1939-1942 too, but since the player rarely loses strength on those, it's not that bad. The main issue is to prevent the player from cheaply getting 14-strength 4-star bombers. The magic number is 14-strength, since it is at that point that anything with less than 10 ammo is reduced to 1, which is makes that unit extraordinarily powerful. This is only possible starting in mid-1942.

After a brief discussion with soldier I will also be reducing the GD of almost all late war super-heavy AFV, both German and Soviets, by about 1. This includes KV-85, IS-1, IS-2, SU/ISU-152, SU/ISU/122, Tiger I, Tiger II, JagdTiger. Elefant will still have GD = 25, since my testing shows that unit is working exactly as it should. This should make medium tanks even more viable.

nvett
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by nvett » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:30 am

Fair point for the increases early on with the SB, I noticed in the Moscow scenario that I lacked the fire-power to reduce the KV5 and other key units to manageable levels of suppression/ammo as my SB had be mauled due to my lack of patience. Limped into a MV and possibly overextended myself, will see soon with the Pocket. Looking forward to 42 although 43 is obviously the big goal! Rommel levels are teaching me valuable lessons in well constructed attacks and patience, I have eyed up your prestige levels in the videos with envy! I think the best enjoyment comes to limiting oneself to historical core force mindset or at the least challenging oneself to vary the composition of the force.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:53 am

Updated to 1.73, with lots of small changes here and there. The following are the biggest changes:

1. Strategic bomber costs increased in 1939-1942 and again in 1943. I want to encourage the player to use more ground attack planes (Ju 87G and Fw 190F/Fw 190G in 1943 and after).
2. Many late war heavy tanks GD reduced by 1.
3. Various 1943-1944 medium AFVs (Panzer IVH, StuG IIIG, T-34/85) GD reduced by 1.
4. StuG IIIF, StuG IIIF/8, StuG IIIG CD +1.
5. Panzer IVJ sideskirts removed, CD to 2.
6. Hetzer move to 6, previously there was nothing to distinguish this vehicle from the StuG IIIG.
7. Il-2 and Il-2M3 slightly improved.
8. Il-10 updated to be truly terrifying.
9. Su-122 GD to 15.
10. Panzer IIIF no longer available for Norway.
11. Panzer IVD and all vehicles with its short-barreled 75 mm gun INI to 5.
12. BA-64 redesigned to be an urban combat recon unit, with CD = 4.
13. All mobile artillery with range > 1 now have INI = 1.
14. Various consistency fixes.

Manual updated to incorporate these changes.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:04 am

nvett wrote:Fair point for the increases early on with the SB, I noticed in the Moscow scenario that I lacked the fire-power to reduce the KV5 and other key units to manageable levels of suppression/ammo as my SB had be mauled due to my lack of patience. Limped into a MV and possibly overextended myself, will see soon with the Pocket. Looking forward to 42 although 43 is obviously the big goal! Rommel levels are teaching me valuable lessons in well constructed attacks and patience, I have eyed up your prestige levels in the videos with envy! I think the best enjoyment comes to limiting oneself to historical core force mindset or at the least challenging oneself to vary the composition of the force.
I'm happy to see things are working out as intended. Moscow 41 is meant to be a very hard scenario, and even getting MV is an achievement.

I think the way my mod works is quite good, because MV is rarely hard to get, but DV can be very, very hard on some maps. The tuning is especially tight in 1943. I dare say anyone hoping for a historical experience will not be disappointed by the epic battles in 1943. The fact is that I often have to spend 15-20 minutes a turn not making a move, just thinking about the situation and planning out my maneuvers (only for critical turns though). This style of play is not for everyone I know, but then again, there's always the standard equipment file for someone who just wants a quick romp through the GCs.

I know some players may feel frustrated being forced to settle for MV, especially in 1943. But even MV was a luxury for the Germans after Kharkov. To do better than history requires uncanny skill. The skill ceiling is high, so as to give a player something to strive for, to improve.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by Uhu » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:18 pm

Nice to see Deducter, that you are still working on this mod!
I hope, one day I can use all of your hard work, you put in this (I rarely play now PC - when I play, than play/test the IC 2.0). Many-many thanks!
What I will not use are the xp penalties for changing from one vehicle to another - I don't want to lose the hard gained and hard paid xp - the high price will enough for me (at least I think with Rommel and with reduced prestige settings).

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update GC45East!

Post by deducter » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:38 pm

Uhu wrote:Nice to see Deducter, that you are still working on this mod!
I hope, one day I can use all of your hard work, you put in this (I rarely play now PC - when I play, than play/test the IC 2.0). Many-many thanks!
What I will not use are the xp penalties for changing from one vehicle to another - I don't want to lose the hard gained and hard paid xp - the high price will enough for me (at least I think with Rommel and with reduced prestige settings).
Thanks for the praise! Regarding the exppenalty, I have tested it and found it to be a critical component. I playtested GC43 with Rommel and the exppenalty and it feels just right, prestige levels are not cripplingly low. The main reason why the penalty was introduced was to prevent the player from getting 4-star 14-strength Tiger/Panthers immediately in GC43. Also various late war units like Me 262 and JagdPanthers are balanced with this in mind. Being able to get highly experienced late war units immediately is incredibly powerful. Upgrading is still worth it, because you can carry over heroes, and you can still have 1-2 star units. It takes a time and lots of prestige if you want your super units, which I think is fair. I consider this component integral to making the game a challenging experience. Of course, you can play without it, but I doubt you'd be challenged as much.

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