Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Carius » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:47 pm

Brummbar is the German nickname.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:16 am

Olkhovatka, meat grinder, DV on last turn. These Kursk battles are far more difficult than Stalingrad. I like the latest update, in so far as it effects the units I've used. The StuG IIIG now seems like more than a book-end. Mk. IIIN CD has helped him survive quite well. Hornisse seems like a great unit to keep giving green replacements. I upgraded one of my 10.5cm artillery into a 7.5cm - still quite effective and perfect to overstrength. Happy with Nebelwerfer and Wespe/Hummel price decreases. Upgraded 7.5 cm Pak with movement +1 into a Ferdinand. Feels like a book-end...when there's no Soviet heavies around :mrgreen: Ferdinand seems vulnerable to infantry attacks. Either that or he's unlucky and the cost of 1 strength point is higher than I'm used to.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by orlinos » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:46 pm

DLC ’44 finished!

Vilna was the first map where I made mid-scenario saves. I restarted it a few times and when the things finally got going well I decided not to press my luck too much – and avoid needless repetition. And it was wise, since few turns from the save I rushed like an idiot and got squashed. Restarted the save and ended the scenario in a nice, calm MV, absolutely not trying to rush to far away Victory Hexes.

Warsaw Uprising, as a scenario, was rather easy, I guess it was designed to let the player rest and regain prestige before Budapest. It was still an emotional drama for me, as I am Polish. Seeing Russians only speeding up to "help" when the last VH were taken, had bitter taste.

Budapest was the first definitive Pyrrhic victory in the whole Grand Campaign. Normally during this playthrough, I just restart the whole scenario, when I lose a useful unit (I did make some exceptions) – the late war scenarios make it very hard to regain lost experience and I was seeing 43-44 for the first time, I did not want to get into downward spiral. (Although a more demanding, “Iron Man” play should definitely happen some day).

Budapest was different – not only did I lose a 21 cm Nebelwerfer artillery (two tanks managed to slip inside the defensive parameter) - two of my fighters got surrounded and finished! The irony is, I just got them promoted to the new, Bf 109 K model, hoping it will make them tougher. Two older G models scraped death few times too, but I managed to e-reinforce them mid-scenario. The fact that they had defense heroes probably made the difference.

During my first attempt, I tried putting infantry on the fortified hexes. It worked extremely bad for auxiliary units (Hungarians are really worthless here, unlike the ahistorical Italians in Stalingrad scenarios). Since their Ground Defense is bad to begin with and they have low Hard Attack, they did almost zero damage – even when rugged defense was triggered. My own units did better, but I was still overwhelmed very fast. I forgot that rivers are passable during winter…

The second attempt was successful – I retreated Hungarians into city hexes, making them much more successful in AT combat. Most of the still died, but took some Russian armor with them. They also lured Russians into the city, making them pray to my elite Grenadiers and Paratroopers.

In the South, I put a lot of Panthers and Tigers, with a Jagdpanther to match. I only had a single SE Gebirgsjäger stay in the Perkata city, but since they have +3 Initiative, they really fear no one. It was probably my mistake, I should have put some more infantry in the swamp. The South was tricky at the beginning, once the thaw came, it was a no-brainer. (Although the weather turned to frozen again for few turns – and some Red armor used the occasion brutally).

In the North, I raced to take good strategic positions in the rugged terrain. I was partially successful, although I still took some damage. It’s a pity I didn’t put my shiny Tiger II there, it got bored around Budapest and barely managed to fire a few times.

I am starting DLC ‘45 with a gift from High Command – a shiny new Tiger I, my third. I have only 5555 prestige and three units KIA, to be reformed. I’ll probably leave the Nbfw dead, since I have plenty other artillery, but I do not know what to do with the fighters. If I bring them back, they will die even faster, since they have no experience. If I had more prestige, I might upgrade them to jetfighters, but it’s too expensive now. I guess I’ll be needing more AA.

I’ll try to describe my core. Mind you, it won’t be as professional as what some of you do – I only organize my core on the battlefield, depending on the tactical situation. It sometimes leads to situations when some units are dancing between two groups during a scenario, unsure where they belong.

Infantry
The Elite:
SE Gebirgsjäger +3Ini +1A +Spotting
SE Infantry +2D +Spotting
SE Grenadier +1D +4Ini
Fallschirmjäger +1D +1A
Gebirgsjäger +2Ini
Pioniere +1D +2Ini +2A

The rest
Brückenpioniere, second Pioniere unit and 3 Wehrmacht units – depending on the scenario, I switch some of them from plain infantry to Grenadiers. They have different heroes, one managed to get +2 spotting.

I got really lucky with infantry heroes – my SE Grenadiers and SE Gebirgsjäger can often be left with no artillery support and survive unscathed. The SE Grenadiers I always keep at +5 strength – they one-shot kill absolutely everything and can sometimes even stand against tanks in open terrain.

Until this playthrough, I always had two SE Grenadiers. This time, I decided to leave one SE infantry plain. They still have slightly higher HA and are much more flexible. When defensive scenarios came, I turned some of my plain, non-SE infantry into Grenadiers, since they do great on defense.

Fallschirmjäger – I used to hate this unit, since in the early DLC’s it’s horribly expensive on Rommel, serves as a tank magnet etc. A good solution was to train it as ordinary infantry and only upgrade it few scenarios before Moscow. Right now, it’s another super-unit, capable of withstanding almost anything. Keeping it around 13-14 strength is very expensive, but worth it.

Most of my units have no transport, 2-move units have trucks, SE units have SdKfz’s. Gebirgsjäger and Fallschirmjäger I keep with no trucks – Mountaineers are more efficient on foot, Fallschirmjäger are too expensive. It’s a bit awkward, since they cannot act on the first turn, having to land first.

Armour
The proud big guys
2 SE Tiger I’s and 2 SE Panther G’s (and just received a green Tiger I). I never overstrengthen them, except one SE Panther with +2 Defense and 1 Move hero. That Panther is my super unit and I used to be able to keep it at maximum overstrength almost all the time. I used to.
Tiger II +2A – it’s slow. It has no fuel. It stalls all the time in the snow. It kills everything just by staring hard.
Elefant – a slower Tiger II, with no infantry-fighting capabilities.
Jagdpanther +Spotting – nice, but it got hurt often and has very little experience, since I wasn’t able to afford e-replacements.

The overworked and underpayed workhorses
Two Panzer IVH’s, one with +2D, another with +4D hero.

Look at them. Now look at the Tiger II. Now look at them again. Now look at me, I’m on an Elefant!

Cheap, efficient at killing infantry in the open and mop up tasks. If needed and if using StuG IV as artillery, they can even face the worst Russian AT – although they will lose half strength then. Still, sometimes better this than letting the Red Horde break defenses. I have not yet experimented with IV J’s – lower costs lure me, but the lower CD scares away. Panzer IV and StuG’s are the units I most often put in close terrain if I have to, so I prefer them with their skirts on.

Two Stug IIIG’s, with Initiative and Defense heroes. I love them, they love me and we all hate Big Red Riding Tanks. Definitely my underdog units – they rarely do obscene amount of damage and they get hurt often, but I couldn’t do without them. When one of them died, I upgraded another AT to StuG and turned the dead one into an inexperienced Jagdpanzer.

Nashorn – fragile, specialized, and very hard to use, with so much artillery around. I try to keep it at full strength, since it can one-shot almost everything, except veteran armor with very high initiative.

8,8 cm Pak 43 – I’m waiting for some more of your videos, Deducter, since I want to learn to use it effectively in 1944. There is so much enemy artillery in defensive scenarios, that I prefer to use Nashorn – which costs a bit more, but it can be taken out of harm’s way much faster. Still, when it is used, it does very high damage.

Also, I have lots of captured tanks – 4 T-34/41, KV-B, 2 Shermans, a Matilda, a Char-B, a Panzer IIIN which lost overstrength in Warsaw and a little Panzer IB. I’ll have to sell most of these, except those with heroes.

I’m thinking that I might have been wiser and not have bought so many heavy tanks. They are very efficient, when used carefully, but they hardly allow overstrength, making me shoot more and wasting more ammo and time.

Artillery

I have tons of it. 2 x 10.5 cm (including the captured Polish one with +1 Range and +1 Move), 2 x 15 cm, a fresh killed Nblwf 42 (I enjoyed using an auxiliary 43 variant, but 4 ammo is too low on defense), a Wurfrahmen 40, Stuh 42 with +1 Range (extremely useful), a very mobile Grille H, a Brummbär (great urban artillery, not suppressible by Red Army, a captured SU-122 and two StuG IV’s with 3-4 overstrength (probably a mistake).

I have not yet bought Wespe or Hummel. The trouble with ‘44 is that there is so many units and so little of the core can be deployed. Since I carry tons of AA guns, I often find myself fielding too few units on the ground. Again, a mistake.

AA guns

2 x 88’s, 1 x 12,8 cm (great on defense) 1 x SdKfz 7/2 with Range hero, 1 x SdKfz 7/1, 1 x Wirbelwind (Ostwind is too expensive – and higher ROF makes Wirbelwind good at suppression).

Fighters

2 x Bf 109 G with Defense heroes
2 x Bf 109 K with Move heroes; KIA, waiting to be resurrected
2 x Fw 190A with Initiative heroes; I used to keep them both at 13-14 strength, by the furious Russian pilots. It’s not fair!

I probably should have promoted those two dead Bf 109 K’s to Fw 190A’s instead some time before. Even with smaller experience, they would probably cost me less in the long way (I had to e-reinforce them mid scenario all the time).

Bombers
2 Stukas – resting and playing cards, it makes no sense to put them in the open, because they just get severely wounded after just one bombing. I use Fw 190G much more and probably I should have upgraded Stukas to it, instead of buying a new unit.

I used the D model a few times in 1944, when there was much artillery, especially the Katyushas. The G model is almost unusable, too fragile. Hs 129B-1 is much better, although the days when it used to have 14 strength points are long over.

Me 410 – I do not use it anymore, since the deployment limits got smaller, but I loved it earlier – it's great at mopping up, increasing massive attack and attacking lesser bombers. Bf 110G – I try keeping it at 13-14 strength, since it can easily one-shot kill most bombers. Also – enemy fighters with no ammo, heh heh heh revenge.

I used two bombers so far, a Do 217E A and Ju 188A which got reduced to 2 strength points in Budapest and will probably be left that way. Or maybe not, since it’s very useful.

I just checked, if I sell the unused, inexperienced captured tanks, I’ll have app. 7000 prestige. Wish me luck, the Final Hour is coming! ;-)
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by monkspider » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:14 am

I just wanted to give another general note of thanks for your hard work on this Deducter, I am on my second playthrough, currently on 1942, about to start Fall Blau. I plan to try the western ones with this same core when I am done, hopefully by then '45 West will be out.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:26 am

Re Orlinos: In 1944, it is possible with careful play to get through with your core mostly unscathed. But 1945 is, well, an exercise in destroying your core. There are a lot of interesting battles in that year, all of them brutal. It's rare for a wargame to devote so many scenarios to 1944-1945 from the German perspective, so that's a nice thing about the GCs.

The reason why Budapest44 is so hard is because of the bad weather, which not only removes the river as an obstacle, but also equalizes the IN of your units with the Red Army. One big advantage of the German over the Soviets is high IN. Without your IN advantage, units like the Nashorn are useless, and Panthers/Tigers are much more vulnerable.

There are a lot of tricks you can employ in the late war years to survive the onslaught of the Red Army. For instance, I never overstrength my bombers anymore, and under tight prestige conditions I abandon Ju 87s in 1944 and upgrade them to the Fw 190 series. That is not to say the Ju 87 is useless: there are certain scenarios and moments when, if you can clear out the Red Air Force temporarily, an elite Ju 87 can annihilate most Soviet tanks in one hit. But the Fw 190 is more versatile. I do realize that I need to reduce the price of the Hs 129 somewhat.

I usually keep 1, or 2 fighters with the best IN and attack heroes overstrength at max exp. The rest of the fighters can sit comfortably at 3-4 stars, or even lower is fine, if you know how to employ them. The trick is to make sure your low exp fighters are safe from the viewing range of the Soviets. Also (although it depends) I usually will attack with a 10-strength fighter first, then attack with my elite fighter, which makes it so that I rarely lose overstrength points on my best fighter. In conjunction with AA and reinforcing mid-scenario, the air war is manageable.

The Panzer IVJ has the advantage of lots of extra fuel. I use it to mop up infantry in clear terrain, and also to destroy weak Soviet tanks. Combine it with a move hero, and it can zip across the map in no time.

The StuG IV is an interesting vehicle. I personally still think it's overpowered, despite a reduction to HA and an increase to cost, because I find the switching ability to be incredibly powerful when used correctly. The unit also gains exp very fast because of its artillery mode. But there's not too much else I can do about this unit, so until there are more modding options, it'll remain more or less as is.

The Tiger II isn't slow, it actually has 5 move. However, its lack of fuel seriously hampers its effectiveness when attacking. Use it to anchor your defensive line. The AI almost never attacks the unit on the ground, so just keep it protected against air attacks.

I might need to reduce the price of the JagdPanther a bit more. I hesitate to do so because it is my favorite unit due to its speed, armor, and high attack. I think it is the best German AT unit.

The Me 262 is really, really good. Unlike in the base game, it doesn't have an air defense penalty, and I gave it extra ground defense to protect it from AA. It will wipe the floor with all Soviet planes without effort. But it is too expensive to field in large numbers, mostly due to the exorbitant elite reinforcement costs. Still, even at 1-2 stars it is still almost invincible.

I don't understand how the Ostwind is considered too expensive. In the latest update, it should cost about 430 prestige, compared with 390 with the Wirbelwind. I actually like the Ostwind much more, because I find the extra attack necessary to bring down Soviet aircraft.

Don't forget the Volkssturm in 1945. Use them as your conscripts. If you lose 4-5 a scenario, that's okay. To put it in perspective, that's about 1 overstrength point on a Tiger II.

There are also other tricks that involve knowing the AI's move order and exploiting that to position your units. The biggest flaw with the AI is that it is too predictable. The game would be much, much harder if the AI adds an element of randomness to how it moves its units, and if it knows how to pull frontline units back.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by orlinos » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:12 pm

deducter wrote:Re Orlinos: In 1944, it is possible with careful play to get through with your core mostly unscathed. But 1945 is, well, an exercise in destroying your core.
Good thing I have such a big core waiting to be annihilated. ;-)
deducter wrote:The reason why Budapest44 is so hard is because of the bad weather, which not only removes the river as an obstacle, but also equalizes the IN of your units with the Red Army. One big advantage of the German over the Soviets is high IN. Without your IN advantage, units like the Nashorn are useless, and Panthers/Tigers are much more vulnerable.
Now that I think about it, I should have relied on my infantry even more. So many Initiative heroes…
deducter wrote: […]I usually keep 1, or 2 fighters with the best IN and attack heroes overstrength at max exp. The rest of the fighters can sit comfortably at 3-4 stars, or even lower is fine, if you know how to employ them. The trick is to make sure your low exp fighters are safe from the viewing range of the Soviets. Also (although it depends) I usually will attack with a 10-strength fighter first, then attack with my elite fighter, which makes it so that I rarely lose overstrength points on my best fighter. In conjunction with AA and reinforcing mid-scenario, the air war is manageable.
I understand spotting range. I use my fighters a lot to cover my units – if even a single tries attacking them, the covering fighter is seen. Obviously, I also cover my units with AA guns, but there are often single units at the very front, that cannot be covered by AA without sacrificing the AA and need fighter protection (unless I only use AA, no artillery cover, like I did in the early Tiger days).

I guess I should have upgraded one more of the BF’s to a Fw. With 3 of these guys I would be able to provide adequate VISIBLE fighter cover, lesser planes would be able to be hidden. Also, if I wasn’t playing so aggressively with my Fw’s they would have to rearm less often. Again – less occasions to have to unhide my lesser fighters.
deducter wrote:The Panzer IVJ has the advantage of lots of extra fuel. I use it to mop up infantry in clear terrain, and also to destroy weak Soviet tanks. Combine it with a move hero, and it can zip across the map in no time.

The StuG IV is an interesting vehicle. I personally still think it's overpowered, despite a reduction to HA and an increase to cost, because I find the switching ability to be incredibly powerful when used correctly. The unit also gains exp very fast because of its artillery mode. But there's not too much else I can do about this unit, so until there are more modding options, it'll remain more or less as is.
Being prestige broke, I’ll probably like Panzer IVJ. ;-)

I mostly avoided using my 2 StuG IV’s as AT’s – I managed to put them both into 14 strength few scenarios earlier and I enjoyed the protection. I used the AT mod extensively in Vilna and also few times in Budapest – during some hectic improvisations.

The Tiger II isn't slow, it actually has 5 move. However, its lack of fuel seriously hampers its effectiveness when attacking. Use it to anchor your defensive line. The AI almost never attacks the unit on the ground, so just keep it protected against air attacks.

I know it has 5 move, but it has to stop for a cig every second turn in winter weather. ;-) The train lines can be used very efficiently to move it between the fronts but such moves need to be very carefully planned in advance. Something I’m still bad at.
deducter wrote:I might need to reduce the price of the JagdPanther a bit more. I hesitate to do so because it is my favorite unit due to its speed, armor, and high attack. I think it is the best German AT unit.
Mine is not doing so great, but that’s because I nearly killed it a few times and it’s low on experience. I think I always only normal-reinforce him.
deducter wrote: The Me 262 is really, really good. Unlike in the base game, it doesn't have an air defense penalty, and I gave it extra ground defense to protect it from AA. It will wipe the floor with all Soviet planes without effort. But it is too expensive to field in large numbers, mostly due to the exorbitant elite reinforcement costs. Still, even at 1-2 stars it is still almost invincible.
I haven’t yet bought any jet fighters. I probably should have…
deducter wrote:I don't understand how the Ostwind is considered too expensive. In the latest update, it should cost about 430 prestige, compared with 390 with the Wirbelwind. I actually like the Ostwind much more, because I find the extra attack necessary to bring down Soviet aircraft.
A misunderstanding, I meant “too expensive considering my current needs”, not “too expensive for everyone and it should be cheaper”. I enjoy Wirbelwind as a mobile and tough suppressor, which doesn’t need overstrength to repel attacks. I use other of my AA units to really hurt the enemy.

I had fun with all Flak Panzers so far, so I’ll probably try the Ostwind too.
deducter wrote: Don't forget the Volkssturm in 1945. Use them as your conscripts. If you lose 4-5 a scenario, that's okay. To put it in perspective, that's about 1 overstrength point on a Tiger II.

There are also other tricks that involve knowing the AI's move order and exploiting that to position your units. The biggest flaw with the AI is that it is too predictable. The game would be much, much harder if the AI adds an element of randomness to how it moves its units, and if it knows how to pull frontline units back.
I have only played few scenarios from Africa and had yet seen any of the West content, since I want to finish East first, so I do not know how well the new patch features work in practice. With more and more of scripting being possible – I thought that in the future it might maybe be possible to introduce such randomness – to the AI and to scenarios. Maybe different difficulties should also have more or less enemy units?

I can fully understand some of people I read, claiming the late war felt like an arcade game. Loose tactical sense for even a second and the Russians pour in, destroying all defenses and making me restart the scenario (unless I just wanted to watch all my core burn and be unable to continue).

It’s interesting and challenging at high levels – but probably boring for casual players. More casual difficulties might probably do well with less enemy units (and so less prestige).
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:34 pm

orlinos wrote: I have not yet bought Wespe or Hummel. The trouble with ‘44 is that there is so many units and so little of the core can be deployed. Since I carry tons of AA guns, I often find myself fielding too few units on the ground.

I use Fw 190G much more and probably I should have upgraded Stukas to it, instead of buying a new unit.
I've found the Wespe and Hummel to be extremely useful. They seemed to have gained their experience real fast even though I give them green replacements when they get clobbered.

When the FW-190F came out I upgraded my A5/Spotting+1 Ju-87B to it. I've found the 190F to be far more useful than the Stuka. Though it no longer totally eliminates ground targets in one run, it renders tanks, artillery, and suppressed AA effectively impotent. This is sufficient for my purposes. I have a Ju 87G and Hs129 that I haven't quite been able to use since Kursk began. When core slots open mid-scenario I've chosen to bring out other units instead.

Deducter, do you model the Jagdpanther with schurtzen even though the graphics don't have them? There's an icon in DCS which has them AND, without glossy camo, looks like it belongs in the game. I'm not suggesting you add it to your mod. Just pointing it out.

Orlinos, you mentioned PC playing like an arcade game. I've recently had an insight into 'why' I used to play PC like an arcade game - because I was obsessed with the aesthetic aspect of the game with DCS camo patterns. I spent far more time perfecting and implementing camo patterns than I did actually playing, and who wants their shiny new high gloss paintjob to get ruined? A while ago I went back to the original gray icons and just recently went back to the original base SS icons because I realized the glare on DCS camos look out of place. The base "SE" have no glare to blind me from becoming a better player. Just my opinion, no offense intended toward anyone. I did get alot of enjoyment out of DCS.

The further I get the more I notice the holes in my armor, weaknesses in the cohesion of my tactics and strategy. If I intend to play without cheating I'm probably gonna get annihilated. The only thing that could make the game better at this point is a bottle of Frank's Hot Sauce, which to my knowledge is not moddable.

I've completely removed direct fire modes for artillery and flak units. I reasoned that the attacking unit enters into the enemy hex, unless ranged. I considered everything I've read and my gut told me it was not appropriate to give artillery and flak units direct fire ability at all. The developers already modeled their ability to defend themselves with attack values in parenthesis, which to my knowledge is how the Germans used them. It would be madness to attack enemy postions with a lone battalion a Sdkfz 7/2s with their guns aimed forward, or drive your trucks up in front of the enemy to set up your 10.5 cm leFH, let alone occupy enemy controlled cities with them. Sort of the same way it seems like madness to give railguns the ability to move and shoot. I submit the only way that seems reasonable to implement K5 railguns as purchasable units is to make a switch mode. One can shoot but not move, the other can move but not shoot. With the new range of 4 this might work.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:22 am

4kEY wrote:
Deducter, do you model the Jagdpanther with schurtzen even though the graphics don't have them? There's an icon in DCS which has them AND, without glossy camo, looks like it belongs in the game. I'm not suggesting you add it to your mod. Just pointing it out.
No, since the graphics don't include shurtzen I didn't given it extra CD. This is also the case for the Panther G. The only exception is the Panzer IIIM.
Orlinos, you mentioned PC playing like an arcade game. I've recently had an insight into 'why' I used to play PC like an arcade game - because I was obsessed with the aesthetic aspect of the game with DCS camo patterns. I spent far more time perfecting and implementing camo patterns than I did actually playing, and who wants their shiny new high gloss paintjob to get ruined? A while ago I went back to the original gray icons and just recently went back to the original base SS icons because I realized the glare on DCS camos look out of place. The base "SE" have no glare to blind me from becoming a better player. Just my opinion, no offense intended toward anyone. I did get alot of enjoyment out of DCS.
I like the style of the vanilla graphics for PzC, they are simple and functional. It is easy to tell the units apart at a glance. In general I don't care too much about fancy graphics, my interest is more in the gameplay side of things.
I've completely removed direct fire modes for artillery and flak units. I reasoned that the attacking unit enters into the enemy hex, unless ranged. I considered everything I've read and my gut told me it was not appropriate to give artillery and flak units direct fire ability at all. The developers already modeled their ability to defend themselves with attack values in parenthesis, which to my knowledge is how the Germans used them. It would be madness to attack enemy postions with a lone battalion a Sdkfz 7/2s with their guns aimed forward, or drive your trucks up in front of the enemy to set up your 10.5 cm leFH, let alone occupy enemy controlled cities with them. Sort of the same way it seems like madness to give railguns the ability to move and shoot. I submit the only way that seems reasonable to implement K5 railguns as purchasable units is to make a switch mode. One can shoot but not move, the other can move but not shoot. With the new range of 4 this might work.
Direct modes are tricky to implement. I'm not against adding direct fire modes to FlaK someday, but there are enough units in the German arsenal that I see little reason to include them for now. Giving more German artillery, especially the 10.5 cm and 15 cm arty, direct fire modes also isn't out of the question in the future. As for railguns, I would never include them for this mod, since I consider it completely ahistorical for any Panzer Corps to get its own, dedicated railgun unit. They are given out as AUX in certain scenarios, and I'm happy with that.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:53 am

I thought of something. Under my reasoning strongpoints wouldn't be able to attack offensively either. I think it best I leave the issue alone.

Achtung Panzer is one of a few websites I found which state the Germans never used the name "Brummbar", but that it was an Allied 'nickname'. Because it is in German language does not mean the Germans used it, but it's not that big a deal. If it bothers me too much I'll simply change it to Sturmpanzer IV or 43. Would there be confusion with players thinking it should be an in-family upgrade from Sturmpanzer I and II?
deducter wrote:
I'm not against adding direct fire modes to FlaK someday, but there are enough units in the German arsenal that I see little reason to include them for now.
You may find them to be too useful for capturing unoccupied enemy hexes. I did.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:39 pm

4kEY wrote: The further I get the more I notice the holes in my armor, weaknesses in the cohesion of my tactics and strategy. If I intend to play without cheating I'm probably gonna get annihilated. The only thing that could make the game better at this point is a bottle of Frank's Hot Sauce, which to my knowledge is not moddable.
I did say explicitly that this mod makes the game much harder after 1943. However, I want it to be challenging while maintaining a historical feeling, adding consistency to unit stats, expanding strategic options (experience, upgrade, and reinforcement rules), and maintain a sense of fairness (yes, the Red Army should be very tough, but not by simply adding 5-strength points to all their units). I can assure you that the mod is beatable without having to cheat, although I define "beatable" as getting to Berlin 1945 with parts of your core still intact. Personally I have never won a DV on Berlin (although I think it is quite possible in my mod at least on General setting), and I too sign the surrender papers after a hard-fought battle.

I'm just glad that there are players out there enjoying the game more as a result.

I've thought about changing strongpoints in a number of ways, but for now I'm leaving them as is due to map balance. I'm not against make it so that strongpoints can't attack, if other posters agree.

As for the Sturmpanzer IV, I think the nickname "Brummbär" is strongly associated with that vehicle that I will keep using it. As another example, in 1944 the "Hummel" was not supposed to be called that anymore since it means "bumblebee," but I see little reason to drop the name in 1944.

I should be able to get a new manual along with changes for GC44West up by January. Fortunately only minor tweaks are necessary for that years, as most of the work was already done in GC43West.

Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:09 pm

I'm almost at the end of 1941 so I can write my experience with my own xp-growing system in Deducter's mod. With the gamerules set to 40-15-5-1-1-1 the system worked very well: apart of the "quick-growers" (arty, bombers), all other units have gained xp in ideal speed - this means that the yearly xp gap was only touched about at the last two scenarios or even not at that point. So, I don't plan to change it - maybe it will be harder to buy elite replacements but I like this way better.
About the non-family upgrade: I think I will use some xp-modifiing effect but maybe not so hard as your version: I would say, the goal would be to go on 300, or little fewer xp when upgrading on Tiger, Panther, Fw 190, etc.
Uhu wrote:
deducter wrote:
You cannot judge an experience system having play only a few scenarios in 1939, no matter how fast you gain exp. There are about 70 scenarios in the whole Grand Campaign, not counting the new western front DLCs.
You are absolutely right. But maybe in the first years (at least 39-40) there will be anyway not a big difference, because there is the xp limit. The only difference can be that if I want to give elite replacement than it will cost me more. But until Warsaw I never gave elite replacement because there was not much prestige to spend. As I said later I will look how my version works. I'm always open to edit something if other works better. :)

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by deducter » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:54 pm

Uhu wrote:I'm almost at the end of 1941 so I can write my experience with my own xp-growing system in Deducter's mod. With the gamerules set to 40-15-5-1-1-1 the system worked very well: apart of the "quick-growers" (arty, bombers), all other units have gained xp in ideal speed - this means that the yearly xp gap was only touched about at the last two scenarios or even not at that point. So, I don't plan to change it - maybe it will be harder to buy elite replacements but I like this way better.
About the non-family upgrade: I think I will use some xp-modifiing effect but maybe not so hard as your version: I would say, the goal would be to go on 300, or little fewer xp when upgrading on Tiger, Panther, Fw 190, etc.
Even in 1942 I doubt the Russians will challenge you too much outside of Sevastopol, Stalingrad, and Tatinskaya. And I only consider the last scenario to be actually hard.

Did you change the replacement costs for elite reinforcements? I assume that using your slow exp growth system, you never, ever reach for normal reinforcements, certainly not on any of your experienced units. If you look at the gamerules.pzdat file for the later years, you'll see that elite reinforcement costs increases every year. If you decide simply to tone that back down to vanilla levels, then we aren't talking about the same mod any more. You'll basically have an experience similar to vanilla; in fact, it might even be easier, because I buffed a lot of the German units while weakening some of the Soviet ones.

Again, I'm glad you enjoy the game your way, but I just don't think your system is as interesting from a gameplay perspective as the current system I set up. If the only option is to always hit elite reinforcements and reload when you lose a unit, that just doesn't seem very interesting to me.

Before, I used to never use normal reinforcements, and only elite reinforce at the deployment stage. But then I realized that was severely limiting optimal gameplay choice. Now, I regularly use normal reinforcements in 1943-1945, both in and out of battle, and sometimes I even hit elite reinforcements in battle in those years, which I never used to do. It all depends on the situation. I think the experience and elite reinforcement rules adds the most strategic depth to the game.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by 4kEY » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:00 pm

Prochorowka: Hellish. I got smashed up pretty good. Half of the time I wondered, “what the hell am I even doing here?” I was satisfied with the historical outcome.

D-Petrovsk: I tried playing a defensive battle, which turned out to be worthless, unnecessary, bit me in the ass at the end of the last turn (including one stray T-34 recapturing an airfield on the last turn causing my Fw190 to run out of fuel and disappear forever - no reforming aircraft that run out of fuel it seems). I replayed the scenario offensively and made mudd-puddles of them for DV on turn 10.

K-Chug: Brilliant. So far every scenario has played different than before, but this one is appreciably different. After taking out their artillery I had to retreat, which I’d intended on doing anyway. Hoards of armor and heavy equipment rushed me, so giving up ground was not very hard for me to do. I fought somewhat of a rear guard to and around the objective hexes at the river line. I found myself anticipating turn 18 more than I’d like to admit. They threw me around pretty good. DV turn 18.

Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:39 pm

My question is: when will end the extreme amount of prestige?
I'm not used to it from the vanilla or the Italian campaign, where you have carefully plan what to buy/upgrade/resupply from the few prestige points.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by orlinos » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:47 pm

Uhu wrote:My question is: when will end the extreme amount of prestige?
I'm not used to it from the vanilla or the Italian campaign, where you have carefully plan what to buy/upgrade/resupply from the few prestige points.
What difficulty are you playing on?
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:18 pm

Rommel... :)
orlinos wrote:
Uhu wrote:My question is: when will end the extreme amount of prestige?
I'm not used to it from the vanilla or the Italian campaign, where you have carefully plan what to buy/upgrade/resupply from the few prestige points.
What difficulty are you playing on?

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by orlinos » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:25 pm

Uhu wrote:Rommel... :)
orlinos wrote:
Uhu wrote:My question is: when will end the extreme amount of prestige?
I'm not used to it from the vanilla or the Italian campaign, where you have carefully plan what to buy/upgrade/resupply from the few prestige points.
What difficulty are you playing on?
Stop complaining and go down to 25%. :twisted:
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:47 pm

But I hoped to get the answer about "in late 1942, begin 1943 you will have hard times already with prestige points" :cry:
The GC scenarios are (after some hard Poland battles) really easy - I only play some scns again to have lesser losses thus save prestige points for the later stage of the war...
orlinos wrote:
Stop complaining and go down to 25%. :twisted:

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by borsook79 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:33 am

Hi, would not want to pester you, but is a 44west version is the works perhaps? After playing the mod is hard to go for Vanilla... :)
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Uhu
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

Post by Uhu » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:21 pm

Another problem would be that it would bring even less motivation to make DVs or capture non-important towns to make a little more prestige. Because I would gain so few prestige with 25% as the overall result of the "extra operation" would be absolute negative because of the losses in the fights.
The results are now also negative but at least - because of my very slow xp growing system - I can gain a little more experiences for my units.
orlinos wrote: Stop complaining and go down to 25%. :twisted:
Sometimes I don't understand how could the developers make such an easy gameplay in the GCs after they made such hard battles in the vanilla campaign (on Rommel level). It's OK that there should be easier levels for players but it had to be also a made a level which brings challenge for the hardcore players.

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