Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

A forum to discuss custom scenarios, campaigns and modding in general.

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:51 am

I've completed the following changes:

1. All years Ju 87 series and Hs 129 GD +1
2. Ju 87B/R HA +1 in 1942
3. Ju 87B/R/D cost reduced by 10% in 1943.
4. Ju 87G and Hs 129B-2 HA no longer penalized in 1943 (full value of 14 and 12 respectively).
5. Most Soviet AFVs AD reduced.
6. KV-1 series nopurchase flag added.
7. Pe-8 and Il-4 AA significantly reduced.
8. Sdkfz 7 cost 150 to 100.

Tactical bombers should be really devastating to Soviet armor now. Since this mod is designed to be played with the increased cost of overstrength/elite reinforcement rules, basically it would be prohibitively expensive to overstrength all of the player's tactical bombers. A 15-strength Ju 87G should destroy all Soviet armor, even the IS-2, quite handily. The issue of course is that the Ju 87 will take losses in the attack, losses that cannot be made good. So it may be prudent in 1943 to have TAC at 10-strength. They should still be plenty devastating.

I basically want to make sure TAC is the more prestige-saving option for the player, and especially that they are better against hard targets. STR should be more effective against soft targets.

If anyone has any other thoughts/suggestions, let me know now, because I'll probably upload tomorrow.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:33 am

New version out. In addition to the changes listed in the previous post, the Panzer II Flamm cost has been reduced from 560 to 448.

orlinos
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:29 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:27 am

deducter wrote:New version out. In addition to the changes listed in the previous post, the Panzer II Flamm cost has been reduced from 560 to 448.
Yikes! Haven't played the new version yet, but yesterday I played Kotelnikovo and Kharkov 43 (I’ll have to restart, since I played terribly and got many units wounded or killed) – with some of the 1.81 features already in place. Stukas do finally feel like powerful tools again – with overstrength they could almost totally kill smaller tanks and heavily wound bigger beasts. And still, they are not all-time one-hit wonders, because of the weather. (And in the future, because of Red Army fighters).

I read relevant parts of the Manual and I think it is missing info on 10% price reduction for earlier Stukas in ’43. I think it’s a good idea - I already tried downgrading one of mine to Ju87R. Might even try making it an 87B, although the fuel will be a problem.

The new rules for price of replacements are starting to show in ’43. It wasn’t that bad in Stalingrad, right now it costs 220 for 1 overstrength point of He 177 A. I am definitely going for these cheaper Stukas.

Since I have never yet played any DLC’s beyond ’42 (and I didn’t play much with infantry in vanilla campaign) the changes in ’43 are a shock, I have to get to know the infantry units again. And the Red Army does seem to field very competent and experienced veterans. This is going to hurt me…
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:11 pm

orlinos wrote:
deducter wrote:New version out. In addition to the changes listed in the previous post, the Panzer II Flamm cost has been reduced from 560 to 448.
Yikes! Haven't played the new version yet, but yesterday I played Kotelnikovo and Kharkov 43 (I’ll have to restart, since I played terribly and got many units wounded or killed) – with some of the 1.81 features already in place. Stukas do finally feel like powerful tools again – with overstrength they could almost totally kill smaller tanks and heavily wound bigger beasts. And still, they are not all-time one-hit wonders, because of the weather. (And in the future, because of Red Army fighters).

I read relevant parts of the Manual and I think it is missing info on 10% price reduction for earlier Stukas in ’43. I think it’s a good idea - I already tried downgrading one of mine to Ju87R. Might even try making it an 87B, although the fuel will be a problem.

The new rules for price of replacements are starting to show in ’43. It wasn’t that bad in Stalingrad, right now it costs 220 for 1 overstrength point of He 177 A. I am definitely going for these cheaper Stukas.

Since I have never yet played any DLC’s beyond ’42 (and I didn’t play much with infantry in vanilla campaign) the changes in ’43 are a shock, I have to get to know the infantry units again. And the Red Army does seem to field very competent and experienced veterans. This is going to hurt me…
My advice for GC43:
1. German medium tanks, especially with 3-4 stars and heroes, are extremely good against T-34s and even decent against KV tanks. You might want to avoid using them in the later scenarios against the KV-85/ISU-152/IS-2, but otherwise they work well.
2. Elite reinforcements are very expensive now and get even much expensive in 1944, so choose wisely which units to overstrength. Now that I think about it, I might have to tone the 1944 costs down a bit. If you play on General or -25%ish prestige you should probably still be able to elite reinforce at the deployment stage for all units. You may not be able to always overstrength artillery/bombers anymore.
3. Green tigers/Panthers are almost invincible against Soviet medium tanks, and with experience (and in good weather) they are almost invincible against Soviet heavy tanks. However, it is very important to protect them with fighters/AA.
4. The Elefant will wreck any Soviet tanks without issue. But they are useless against soft targets. And slow. And breaks down all the time.
5. Experienced infantry are even more incredible than in the base game, so use them well. However, you may have to downgrade their transports to trucks or even remove their transports entirely if you want to afford cheap enough reinforcements (very historical too). Good thing the SE transports are so cheap, huh?
6. Fighters are best used defensively. I recommend at least 8 AA units (fighters/towed AA/SPAAG) for GC43 if you want to be able to achieve at least temporary air superiority. Be warned: The Red Air Force will attempt to kill your wounded 3-4 star fighters.

I will have to update the manual about Ju 87 costs.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:02 am

Do any players have thoughts on the experience growth rates at 200 exp or greater? I increased the values compared with the base game, but to me the new values are not too noticeable. Would increasing growth rates further potentially be better?

I'd like players to use more normal reinforcements, but I want to make rebuilding elite units after normal reinforcing a bit easier. I guess my first question is, at least in 1942 and beyond, how often are players using normal vs elite reinforcements?

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:13 pm

Alright Deducter, I was kind of afraid to try your mod because I figured I wasn't good enough of a player for it, but I finally did and it is really good. It really makes the game a much deeper and more enjoyable. It really is almost like an all-new game actually. I read the instruction manual and I was actually kinda blown away by how much thought you put into so many different aspects of the game. Surviving all the way to 1945 is going to feel like an amazing achievement.

I am nearing the end of 1940, and so far I have thought all of your changes have been, nearly without exception brilliant. There are only two changes that I would dispute, and that is removing the Kavallerie and DO-335 from purchase. I understand your thinking since these were largely ahistorical units but I think the game is slightly richer by their presence. If it were up to me, I would allow Kavallerie to be available during the Poland scenarios but never again afterword and I would allow the DO-335 to be available as normal, but just make it very expensive like you do the ME-262 and others. I view these basically as flavor units and rarely actually used them but I do miss them now that I know they are gone.

Great work though, I look forward to facing the Soviet Union and I will be sure to post additional feedback as I advance through the campaign.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:31 pm

The Kavallerie wasn't an historical unit so much as something that I just couldn't think of a satisfactory way to incorporate. To my knowledge, German motorized formations didn't typically have much cavalry early in the war, but they actually were used towards the late war (44-45) because there were very few transport available by then. But there's already a unit that serves the role of cavalry and it is available in GC40: the motorcycle infantry. It's a nice unit with good attack/spotting/movement, but it suffers from high cost, low defenses, and is horribly immobile in mud/snow. I don't see the need to include the original Kavallerie anymore.

I think surviving 1944 is an achievement, although due to the defensive nature of most of the scenarios, it is quite possible to advance through this year with your core stronger than before if you are willing to settle for mostly MV. In 1945, in every battle just surviving is victory. Fortunately, the Volkssturm is ready to sacrifice itself to buy your core troops some time to regroup after periods of heavy fighting in each scenario. Elite infantry is especially helpful in this year.

That said, GC44/45 balance is one where I've received no feedback. I wonder if perhaps I made things a bit too hard. Knowing infantry tactics is critical for success in these years.

As for the Do-335, if I did enable, it'd be available for at most 2-3 scenarios in 45, and with the upgrade exp penalty, why would anyone even want it at that point? You may not even have many air units left in your core by that time, since you'd have your hands full just trying to delay the unstoppable Red Army at that point with threadbare forces...

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by Kamerer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:00 am

I have played up to mid 41 (getting towards Kiev) and have enjoyed it. I will let you know when I get through more years. A few things I noticed as most distinct:

1) I would allow cavalry; it's fun to use and was part of Guderian's corp for '41 from what I read. But also people seem to like it. Frankly, with the recon changes, I'd see limited use for it in a practical sense.

2) The recon changes are excellent. Now real ground recon is possible is a usable, balanced way.

3) The fuel reductions on the Ju87B and the ME 109E are a bit stiff - they were short legged in the base game, but now they are very limited in some scenarios were there simply aren't bases to capture - Stonne comes to mind. I'd restore them to original values (I think +6 vs. your current values on each) and let the ammo reduction serve to achieve your goals.

4) In '41, I'm finding the Bolshie bombers REALLY hard to damage - about twice as hard as a fighter - e.g. it takes three to four strong ME 109s to down a bomber, vs on average only two for a fighter. Feels a bit off.

5) I'm on the fence/not sure about the reinforcement costs for Russian armor. I read the manual and get the theory about the unit pricing, but basing the reinforcement costs off of that full price makes them really prohibitive to use effectively. Not sure if that is a realistic thing or not.

6) Giving the K18 a greater range and much higher price is a nice move for variety.

I have gone back occasionally and opened old saved games from my last tour through the GC on Rommel, and I am finding my prestige levels and core to look reasonably comparable. So it seems very balanced.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:41 am

Kamerer wrote: 1) I would allow cavalry; it's fun to use and was part of Guderian's corp for '41 from what I read. But also people seem to like it. Frankly, with the recon changes, I'd see limited use for it in a practical sense.
The power of cavalry is their fast move, especially in the snow. That said, I can reenable them, and they'll have a 43 version too. but their cost will need to go up quite a bit, to 300ish, and their SA needs to go down to 4, the same as infantry. I'll also up their GD to 6 so they can benefit from exp faster.

However, with this change, I don't like the overlap between the stats motorcycle infantry and cavalry. If cavalry is back in the game. I'm thinking of giving motorcycle troops another +1 GD in exchange for removing their bonus to spotting. Thoughts on this?
3) The fuel reductions on the Ju87B and the ME 109E are a bit stiff - they were short legged in the base game, but now they are very limited in some scenarios were there simply aren't bases to capture - Stonne comes to mind. I'd restore them to original values (I think +6 vs. your current values on each) and let the ammo reduction serve to achieve your goals.
The reason I lowered their fuel was to make air fields an important consideration for your advance. Lowering the ammo means you should use your bombers at the critical point. Furthermore, there's always the Bf 109F in 1941 and the Ju 87R, both with much better range, although the latter has terribly low ammo. I like these are interesting tradeoffs. The idea is that air power should be used at the critical point. Nevertheless, in 1939-1942, outside of a few scenarios (Kharkov42, Tatsinskaya) I have no problem employing bombers almost completely at will. I'm at scenario 3 of GC42, and all 4 of my bombers (TAC and STR) have a combined loss of 33 steps for about 2300 step kills, not including hundreds upon hundreds of suppressed steps. I see little reason to buff the early war planes.
4) In '41, I'm finding the Bolshie bombers REALLY hard to damage - about twice as hard as a fighter - e.g. it takes three to four strong ME 109s to down a bomber, vs on average only two for a fighter. Feels a bit off.
The Pe-2 was actually a decently tough bomber and not as easy as say a Ju 87 to shoot down. The Pe-8, well, it's highly ahistorical for the Soviets to be fielding dozens of squadrons of these planes when less than 100 were ever made. I already lowered their AA so they won't kill many steps of the attacking fighters, but honestly, the Red Air Force is not a threat in 1941 and barely a threat in 1942. Anyway, overstrength a fighter or two, and watch them rip apart the bombers. If you don't want to spend your prestige to overstrength, that's fine too, but it means you'll take longer to kill the bombers. This sounds like a reasonable tradeoff to me. You are not meant to play without overstrength, it's just that which units to overstrength should be an interesting choice now, as opposed to just overstrengthing all units for all scenarios.
5) I'm on the fence/not sure about the reinforcement costs for Russian armor. I read the manual and get the theory about the unit pricing, but basing the reinforcement costs off of that full price makes them really prohibitive to use effectively. Not sure if that is a realistic thing or not.
I don't want to change this component. The idea is that disbanding should be a very attractive option. Look at the stats for the T-34 and the KV-1 tanks, they are much better than anything the Germans can get until 1942. In terms of defense, only the StuG IIIF introduced in mid-1942 even has the same amount of GD as the T-34/41, and nothing is better than the KV-1B until 1943. So they need a high cost to compensate. Keep in mind the cost for these tanks gets reduced in 1942 and 1943, and by 1943 the T-34/41 is very affordable. The one change I will implement is to automatically upgrade the T-34/40 to the T-34/41 starting in 1942, so as to make the choice of using those two initial captured T-34/40 a better option.
I have gone back occasionally and opened old saved games from my last tour through the GC on Rommel, and I am finding my prestige levels and core to look reasonably comparable. So it seems very balanced.
Just out of curiosity, how much prestige do you have?

This is probably because you are an even better player now. This mod is meant to tax your prestige levels on Rommel. Don't worry though, 1942 and especially 1943 will start to really test you.

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by Kamerer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:08 am

1) Cavalry: Sounds fine to me. I enjoy them once in a while, and I, like you, find the weaknesses of the motorcycle units make them not worth it. But it seems a virtue is to make them fairly analogous to cavalry, with enhanced spotting so a semi-recon unit.

2) Air: my comment was narrowly focused on the reduced range of those two models, not at all a general criticism of the air scheme in your equipment design. The reason is there are one or two scenarios that turn upon applying your tactical air at the critical moment, and those reduced values basically take them out of the equation - and only in '40. Particularly Stonne on the French path; there are no airfields to capture, and a heavy tank attack to beat off at the very end in the open - no thick close terrain to work with. So in general the fuel reduction is no problem during the play period you campaign the Ju87B and the ME 109E, but in that scenario (and I think one other), it upsets the scenario/map design. I think leaving their fuel load unchanged from the base values (I think yours are 31 and 35 vs. 37 and 41 in original design) - and only those two models - is key in '40 at one point at least.

I am fielding two Ju87R's now, and honestly I do not find the low ammo a real handicap. I find it feels more "authentic" this way, too. The way aircraft could joist loiter over the battlefield for five turns or more before just felt wrong. Sometimes you were fueling tanks more often than planes - did not feel quite right. So in general I don't have a problem with the reduced ammo load and range, etc.

3) Prestige: I am ready to start Zolotonasha, core rebuilt and I have 6,850. I have picked up most of the captures along the way, so that helps, too. Though I am fielding the two Russian ones until the IV/F2 comes available; haven't turned them in yet. I had been hovering around 2500-3500 much of '41 but then the last few scenarios are were very rich - I guess because Moscow is coming up? I haven't played '41 in a while so I don't recall the prestige pattern; I recall different years have different patterns/values as to prestige. Yes, I have been playing a lot on Rommel and learning to fight very efficiently, and to be careful about applying prestige and elite reinforcements in the most effective places (air, infantry, and only very experienced and nicely bonused tanks or artillery).
The one change I will implement is to automatically upgrade the T-34/40 to the T-34/41 starting in 1942, so as to make the choice of using those two initial captured T-34/40 a better option.
Good idea.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:58 pm

One very important component I'm considering changing is to eliminate the AI's ability to switch units so as to better preserve the original balance of the GCs. While I've seen the AI make both intelligent and unintelligent decisions about switching, for the most part, it has not affected me much at all besides some novelty value. Obviously only in 1943 does the AI field large quantities of switchable units, and I haven't played that yet. Thoughts on this?

scypion
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by scypion » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:04 pm

I'm in grand campaign from '39 to '43 now and in '43 my only issue is very low fuel on Tiger I tank, I change 2 of my SE panzers to SE Tiger I and this give me only +3 fuel (18 total) it is very low and I vote to you Deducter make Tigers have more fuel 20-25 maybe :D Tiger have high prestige cost and with that low fuel I can't use it effectivly, I can live with low ammo on planes, your idea that air power should be used at the critical point works great, but I love my Tiger tank and want use it more :P

Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by Kamerer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:48 pm

deducter wrote:One very important component I'm considering changing is to eliminate the AI's ability to switch units so as to better preserve the original balance of the GCs. ... Thoughts on this?
Personally I like the AI's ability to do so; acts more like a "real" opponent. I played GC '45 with the 1.10 AI and it made real artillery counter-battery fire a thing to consider. The AI got much more action out of its SU-152s and other, for example, instead of them sitting their idle when they had opportunities to contribute.

So far w/your mods only real unit I have encountered is M1939 Soviet AA/AT. I did not know it was a DP unit and it trashed two tanks badly - I wish there was a unit identifier that a unit is dual class - a "DP" prefix at the start of the unit name or something. That way you can be aware of the threat and act accordingly instead of treating it as the class you see.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:51 pm

scypion wrote:I'm in grand campaign from '39 to '43 now and in '43 my only issue is very low fuel on Tiger I tank, I change 2 of my SE panzers to SE Tiger I and this give me only +3 fuel (18 total) it is very low and I vote to you Deducter make Tigers have more fuel 20-25 maybe :D Tiger have high prestige cost and with that low fuel I can't use it effectivly, I can live with low ammo on planes, your idea that air power should be used at the critical point works great, but I love my Tiger tank and want use it more :P
Exactly, the Tiger gets an upgrade in 1944 to exactly 20 fuel (24 for SE)! I already increased the fuel of the Tiger once in 1943, and I see little reason to increase it more. The Tiger is still great when used correctly, but it is not a unit you just send out ahead of all your other units without any regards for logistics. Try to plan things out a bit more carefully. This fuel limitation is very important to keep Tigers more constrained. 20 fuel in 1943 would be too much.

I may have to boost King Tiger fuel a bit, 12 is a bit low. It won't be as high as 20, but maybe 15. Keep in mind the King Tiger has 5 move now, as is more correct historically.

Edit: Also keep in mind that the Tiger/King Tiger were not great offensive weapons precisely because they often stalled out when driven too far. They were, however, amazing when defending, and there are plenty of defensive scenarios in 1943-1945.

Vorge
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by Vorge » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:37 pm

I have played up to the Wassigny on FM and I have some questions/feedback:
1. So far I'm having tons of prestige (10k with 42 reserve units). Is that normal for this stage of the game or should I consider restarting on Rommel to get some challenge?
2. I feel that some early units (Panzer I; 7,5cm artillery; Do 17Z; 2cm FlaK) are just 100% useless to have in the core because there are much better and not much more expensive alternatives that are available at the same time.
3. It's quite ridiculous that dedicated recon units are better at engaging enemy tanks than early wehrmacht tanks due to recon's much better defences. I think you should consider lowering their HA a bit to compensate.
4. I don't like the fact that disbanding units gives 100% of their cost. Is there any file I can edit to change that?
5. Could you please add nopurchase flag to 7TP tank? Historically there were only about 140 produced and getting counterattacked by 8 units of them during the Piatek scenario is simply not realistic at all.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:15 pm

Vorge wrote:I have played up to the Wassigny on FM and I have some questions/feedback:
1. So far I'm having tons of prestige (10k with 42 reserve units). Is that normal for this stage of the game or should I consider restarting on Rommel to get some challenge?
I think the reason is that you are quite a good player! Given that many things cost more (trucks, recon, bombers, artillery) and you still have 10k prestige, this just means that for an adequate challenge you should play on Rommel. Also, bear in mind that 1939-1941 are still very easy, notwithstanding a few little surprises like the T-34 and the Soviet Guards that can inflict some serious losses if you are not prepared. 1942 is moderately challenging, and some scenarios like Sevastopol Assault, the Stalingrad scenarios, and especially Tatsinskaya are hard. Tatsinskaya in particular is brutal.

Philosophically I am okay with 1939-1941 being very easy, 1942 being moderately difficult. It's really in 1943, when you are fighting the Red Army that has survived the disasters of 1941-1942 and when German manpower problems became severe that you should feel pressed.

And then in 1943, Orel, all the Kursk scenarios, Kremenchug, and Kiev43 are hard. If for some reason you feel playing in 1943 with the full rules, on Rommel, without saving/reloading is too easy, I'd be happy to make things harder. I actually toned down various things for the Soviets in 1943-1945 again and again compared with an earlier version (1.6 I think) because I personally had a hard time. But I'd be very happy to reup the stats for many of the better Soviets units if you don't think 1943-1945 is enough of the challenge.

I however recommend you keep playing the game and switch to Rommel at the start of GC41, but use cheat codes to subtract about half your existing prestige. This is a good enough approximation of Rommel, and you really do want to get to the later years.
2. I feel that some early units (Panzer I; 7,5cm artillery; Do 17Z; 2cm FlaK) are just 100% useless to have in the core because there are much better and not much more expensive alternatives that are available at the same time.
I playtest the game on -75% prestige for 1939-1941, and I find the cheaper units are quite useful. I use the Panzer I, the 7.5 cm artillery, and the Do 17Z precisely because they are cheap. The Panzer I looks bad, but is a surprisingly good deal. I kept one up until the end of the Kiev path in 1941. It's great against all manner of soft targets. The 7.5 cm artillery has a ROF of 11 and is very cheap. I still have a Do 17Z in my core in 1942! On Rommel those units will look very attractive because of the low prestige levels; it's only on FM and because you are a good player that those untis don't seem useful.

Unfortunately the towed AA units besides the 88 and maybe the 12.8 cm FlaK are useless for the core. The stat improvements are more for the units that are preplaced on certain maps. However, I think it's okay for something like 4 units out of 100+ to be useless.
3. It's quite ridiculous that dedicated recon units are better at engaging enemy tanks than early wehrmacht tanks due to recon's much better defences. I think you should consider lowering their HA a bit to compensate.
The dedicated recon already has 3 ammo and only 4 HA. I'm okay with these units being quite good against some of the lighter Western Allies tanks, but just wait until 1941. I think you'll find its little gun to be useless against the T-34/KV-1.

Also keep in mind the high price of the recon units. The basic Dedicated recon unit cost 290, while the all-terrain one cost 360. By contrast, the Panzer IIIF with HA = 7 cost only 278 prestige. To allow them to survive after you send them out ahead, you need to get them up to 2-3 stars, which is not cheap to do. If you want to bleed off strength points and not build up exp on your recon units by sending them to engage tanks, that's a perfectly valid choice. But you might find that if you're running around with 4-5 recon units in 1940, 1941 will be a nasty shock.
4. I don't like the fact that disbanding units gives 100% of their cost. Is there any file I can edit to change that?
There is unfortunately no way to change this. However, I don't think you'll want to change this rule once you play on Rommel. Disbanding captured units for prestige becomes an important game mechanic to maintain a high prestige level.
5. Could you please add nopurchase flag to 7TP tank? Historically there were only about 140 produced and getting counterattacked by 8 units of them during the Piatek scenario is simply not realistic at all.
I agree, this will be done ASAP.

Thanks for all your feedback! Just remember, the changes for 1939-1941 are relatively minor, 1942 has some significant changes, and 1943 feels almost like a new game. So just wait until you get to the later years...

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:08 pm

deducter wrote: As for the Do-335, if I did enable, it'd be available for at most 2-3 scenarios in 45, and with the upgrade exp penalty, why would anyone even want it at that point? You may not even have many air units left in your core by that time, since you'd have your hands full just trying to delay the unstoppable Red Army at that point with threadbare forces...
Great idea on the proposed changes for Kavallerie and the T/34 40! And with respect Herr Deducter, your argument for the removal of the DO-335 can just as easily be seen as a case for it's inclusion. If it is of such trivial importance, why remove it? I see it is a "flavor" unit that at least offers the player a slightly difference experience, even if in practical terms it is unlikely to be used by most players.

deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:16 pm

Changes done:

1. Upped the exp gain rate for 200-500 exp a bit more. Now the effect is more noticeable, and this should make it more reasonable to use normal reinforcements for your experienced units. If exp gain seems a bit fast in 1941-1942, that's okay, because you'll be thankful for this in 1943.
2. 7TP nopurchase added.
3. Panzer II recon models cost reduced.
4. 7.5 cm Pak 40 cost slightly increased.
5. Tiger II fuel 12 to 14.
6. Kavallerie re-enabled with a 43 variant. I'm a bit worried about balancing this unit, since it has very, very good mobility in the snow and it can move through 2 forest hexes at once, which no other german infantry can. However, its high cost, low GD, and very low AD should balance things out.
7. Ju 88A ammo 4 to 3. This unit is really nice, anyone else think so?

Things I don't think should be changed:
1. Fuel increase for the Bf 109E and Ju 87B are not unnecessary. I know about the issue at Stonne, but I think it's okay to have a suitable challenge where for a few turns out of the 100+ in GC40 alone, you cannot call in dive bombers (you can still call in STR bombers). The 88 gun works wonders against the Char B1/Somua. And there is still plenty of rough terrain around Stonne if you position your units cleverly. I think I've played that scenario 4-5 times with those changes, and I've won easily every time. The low fuel also makes the Bf 109F and Ju 87R somewhat more attractive.
2. Tiger fuel increase. Keep in mind this unit has additional HA compared with the base game, while many Russian heavy tanks had their GD reduced. Also keep in mind in 1944 Panthers get a very significant fuel increase and Tigers also get a smaller one. Both get ammo increases.

I'll release another version soon. Good thing updating is a snap, isn't it?

monkspider
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 738
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:17 am

Personally, and I could very well be mistaken in this, but I probably would have balanced the Cavalry to be a cheaper, less effective Kradschutzen with superior spotting and perhaps the mobility advantages you discussed. Maybe it can have -1 SA and -1 defense compared to the Kradschutzen? Regardless, it is great to see that they will be back. :)

I am in agreement with you on the fuel for the air units and Tigers. I haven't played with the Tigers yet admittedly but I do really like how you have modeled the unit.

scypion
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by scypion » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:30 pm

monkspider --> I think the same before I play with Tiger myself but ok I can live with that low fuel becouse I play with Ferdinand now !!! only 9 fuel :twisted:

Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps : Scenario Design”