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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:08 pm
by deducter
Updated to v1.82.

1. Panzer IIIN GD +2 in 1944 to encourage its use.
2. Motorcycle troops GD +1, ammo -1, cost very slightly increase.
3. StuG IIIB cost reduction in 1942-1943 and StuH 42 cost reduction in 1943 removed. The StuG IIIB was never produced in mass numbers, and the StuH 42 is already plenty effective at its original cost.
4. Panzerwerfer 42 entry added, ammo -1
5. Late war fighters tweaked a bit more.

All of this is in addition to the changes already discussed.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:29 pm
by Kamerer
I noticed you did effect the change to the T34/40 to make an automatic upgrade in '42. I am considering that in the scheme of normal equipment progression.

I know it's beneficial to the player, but you do get lots of T34/41 captures in '42, as well as the one in the prior scenario at Demyansk. So I wonder if it's necessary? Mainly because it feels a bit weird; I can't think of another automatic upgrade in the game. Just something to think about.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:35 pm
by deducter
There are lots of automatic upgrades in the game. Ferdinand -> Elefant in 1944, 3.7 cm Flak 36 to 3.7 Flak 43 in 1944, 88 gun gets upgrades in 1942 and 1943, Hs 129B-1 to Hs 129B-2, Panzer IVG upgunned in 1943, and probably dozens more changes like this.

The reason is that the T-34/40 is so markedly inferior to the T-34/41 that I feel players would be compelled to disband them for the 700 prestige early in 1941. Yes, there are lots of captureable T-34/41, so disband some of them for prestige.

I think I accidentally included the wrong version of the manual in this upload, sorry about that. I'll try to fix it ASAP. Also, another change: Hs 129B-1 cost back up to 544 in 1942. I purchased one and found it to be plenty useful, no need to be cheap.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:54 pm
by Kamerer
deducter wrote:There are lots of automatic upgrades in the game. Ferdinand -> Elefant in 1944, 3.7 cm Flak 36 to 3.7 Flak 43 in 1944, 88 gun gets upgrades in 1942 and 1943, Hs 129B-1 to Hs 129B-2, Panzer IVG upgunned in 1943, and probably dozens more changes like this.
Ah, those are all ahead of where I have played your mods. I did not know it was a common practice in your scheme vs. base game. OK.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:35 am
by monkspider
Alright Deducter, I am about to start the first Barbarossa scenario, wish me luck. A thought occurred to me though, I am still using a Panzer II in my core and I appreciate the modest that you gave the unit. I saw the Panzer IIF become available though, which has superior stats, but is only available as a recon. Is it possible to create a non-recon version of the IIF that your Panzer II can upgrade to in 1941? Perhaps make it less expensive or have slightly better attack or something to differentiate from the recon version.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:26 am
by deducter
monkspider wrote:Alright Deducter, I am about to start the first Barbarossa scenario, wish me luck. A thought occurred to me though, I am still using a Panzer II in my core and I appreciate the modest that you gave the unit. I saw the Panzer IIF become available though, which has superior stats, but is only available as a recon. Is it possible to create a non-recon version of the IIF that your Panzer II can upgrade to in 1941? Perhaps make it less expensive or have slightly better attack or something to differentiate from the recon version.
That's a very good suggestion. Consider it done, I'll switch the Panzer IIF to a tank in 1941. It'll be available in time for Barbarossa. I'll have to lower its GD and AD down to 8 though. All Panzer II will be recon units in 1942.

Remember that due to the specialized nature of the Panzer II Flamm, it no longer shares a family with the other Panzer IIs. The Flamm is really, really good at killing conscripts, artillery, and any suppressed soft targets. But it is very vulnerable to tanks.

I'll try to have a new version with some more minor changes and the correct version of the manual out in a day or two.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:54 pm
by monkspider
Woo hoo! Glad to hear it.

Well, I managed to beat Minsk and Smolensk with decisive victories but neither were trivial affairs. Smolensk was an especially damn close run thing. The T-34s and KV-1s are damn tough, but the Red Airforce seems to have had the biggest buffs of all. I might just have to finally move up to Rommel level. I am playing on General, and despite the increase in difficulty, I am having my most productive game ever, prestige-wise, with 17k in the bank.

I really like that this campaign will be one of survival, rather than glorious victories one after the other.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:41 am
by nvett
Out of interest is it possible to update the mod to latest files using a current save game. I updated my latest game nearing the end of 1940 and noticed the JuA88 strat bomber had ammo of 4. Starting a new game had the correct values butmy save did not?

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:11 am
by orlinos
nvett: If you have patch 1.10 installed, game will re-read equipment file when starting the next scenario - but not when only reloading.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:31 am
by deducter
nvett wrote:Out of interest is it possible to update the mod to latest files using a current save game. I updated my latest game nearing the end of 1940 and noticed the JuA88 strat bomber had ammo of 4. Starting a new game had the correct values butmy save did not?
Yes, this is possible, but only for the subsequent scenario. For example, if you are playing with v1.81 of this mod in the scenario Minsk41 and you updated to v1.82, you will have to finish Minsk41 and as soon as you load the next scenario (Smolensk41) the game will read the new v1.82 eqp file.

Basically, just download any updates, copy them into your game folder, and then keep playing the game! I think it's pretty straight forward.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:37 am
by deducter
monkspider wrote:Woo hoo! Glad to hear it.

Well, I managed to beat Minsk and Smolensk with decisive victories but neither were trivial affairs. Smolensk was an especially damn close run thing. The T-34s and KV-1s are damn tough, but the Red Airforce seems to have had the biggest buffs of all. I might just have to finally move up to Rommel level. I am playing on General, and despite the increase in difficulty, I am having my most productive game ever, prestige-wise, with 17k in the bank.

I really like that this campaign will be one of survival, rather than glorious victories one after the other.
Hmm, if you have 17k prestige, you should be overstrengthing most of your units to have an easier time. Artillery and bombers are especially good choices in the early war, but if you have that much prestige overstrength some of your other units too. In this playthrough, my victory at Minsk was almost flawless, although the next scenario Smolensk41 I played rather poorly. Nevertheless, I thought DV was still comfortable for both.

Keep in mind that I do recommend Rommel for the best balance between historical flavor/difficulty for the GC playthroughs.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:43 am
by deducter
The biggest change in v1.10 is the AI's order of movement for its units. This makes a much, much more noticeable increase in difficulty than the unit switching behavior. Escape from Stalingrad is actually a decently challenging scenario now, because the AI used its artillery first, it broke through the Hungarian defenders much faster. I was not prepared for the speed of the Red Army assault and lost too many AUX units, so I had to restart the scenario! The other big change is that planes move after recon. This makes setting up fighter traps much, much harder, and allows the AI to choose much better targets for its bombers. I think this particular change, that planes move after recon, is the single biggest boost to the difficulty of the GCs.

For anyone starting GC42, I could provide some advice in another post if you'd like.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:38 pm
by Vorge
Just finished '40 and switched to Rommel. After halving my prestige and upgrading units I ended with 6,4k and 50 units which I guess is significantly more than I'd have after normal Rommel playthrough. On the other hand my units have awful veterancy after playing FM so I think it'll even out in the long run.

Some further feedback/suggestions:
1. I looked into the equipment file and Pz2 flamm has “close” trait in ’41 which changes to “meng” trait in ’42. Most likely a bug.
2. Fallschirmjaegers get +2GD in ’42 then lose it in ’43.
3. Since PzI is badly obsolete by ’41 how about letting it upgrade in-family to Panzerjaeger I?
4. Is there any balance reason for you not to enable the SE planes (currently locked to Africa theater only)?

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:01 pm
by deducter
Vorge wrote:Just finished '40 and switched to Rommel. After halving my prestige and upgrading units I ended with 6,4k and 50 units which I guess is significantly more than I'd have after normal Rommel playthrough. On the other hand my units have awful veterancy after playing FM so I think it'll even out in the long run.

Some further feedback/suggestions:
1. I looked into the equipment file and Pz2 flamm has “close” trait in ’41 which changes to “meng” trait in ’42. Most likely a bug.
2. Fallschirmjaegers get +2GD in ’42 then lose it in ’43.
3. Since PzI is badly obsolete by ’41 how about letting it upgrade in-family to Panzerjaeger I?
4. Is there any balance reason for you not to enable the SE planes (currently locked to Africa theater only)?
1. Yeah, I'll fix that ASAP
2. I was playing around with upping GD for Fallschirmjager, but I don't think it's necessary. In any case, by 1943 you should upgrade to the 43 infantry. Those are much, much better than the pre-43 infantry that it makes no sense not to.
3. I don't like this idea. Frankly the PzI was badly obsolete in Poland, but even so the Germans continued to use it up until they ran into the Soviet tanks, after which it was phased out. I honestly think it's fine to have it be upgraded out of family to another tank.
4. Yes, because the SE planes have horrible upgrade potential. Plus planes are a very delicate thing in terms of core balance, getting 2 extra bombers for instance could screw up your core quite a bit.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:44 pm
by Vorge
deducter wrote: 3. I don't like this idea. Frankly the PzI was badly obsolete in Poland, but even so the Germans continued to use it up until they ran into the Soviet tanks, after which it was phased out. I honestly think it's fine to have it be upgraded out of family to another tank.
It just seems strange to have TD upgrade patch for Pz38(t) and not have one for PzI, which became obsolete much earlier, both historically and in-game.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:14 pm
by monkspider
deducter wrote:The biggest change in v1.10 is the AI's order of movement for its units. This makes a much, much more noticeable increase in difficulty than the unit switching behavior. Escape from Stalingrad is actually a decently challenging scenario now, because the AI used its artillery first, it broke through the Hungarian defenders much faster. I was not prepared for the speed of the Red Army assault and lost too many AUX units, so I had to restart the scenario! The other big change is that planes move after recon. This makes setting up fighter traps much, much harder, and allows the AI to choose much better targets for its bombers. I think this particular change, that planes move after recon, is the single biggest boost to the difficulty of the GCs.

For anyone starting GC42, I could provide some advice in another post if you'd like.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this!

I am in 1942 now, up to Sevastopol. My core is still doing well with over 20k in the bank. I am glad that you moved up the HS-129 availability, it is a fun unit. As you can see by my relatively quick progress, playing with your mod has been pretty addicting. :)

One thing I definitely have noticed is that I use a substantially larger than normal Luftwaffe, both in response to the much more menacing Red Air Force and to the stronger than normal Soviet armor. Let me know if you have any critques or suggestions for my core.

40th Infantry Divison
3x Wehrmacht Infantry
1x Pak 36 (I don't know what it is about Pak 36's but they are one of the most satisfying units to use)
1x Marder II
1x 10.5cm artillery
1x 15cm artillery

1st SS Panzer Division
1x SE Panzer IIIN
1x SE Panzer IVG
1x SE Panzer III/J1
2x SE Gremadiers
1x Sturmpanzer II
1x 88 FLAK (with 2 move! Probably my favorite unit)
1x 10cm Neelwerfer

9th Panzer Division
1x Panzer 38-T
1x Panzer IIIJ
1x Panzer IVF/2
1x 10.5 artillery
1x STuG IIIB
1x Wehrmacht Infantry
1x Kradschutzen
1x Pionere
1x 3.7 FLAK

4x ME-109F
1x ME-109E
2x JU-87D
1x HS-129
1x HE 111H2
1x DO-217
2x ME-110F

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:11 am
by deducter
Vorge wrote:
deducter wrote: 3. I don't like this idea. Frankly the PzI was badly obsolete in Poland, but even so the Germans continued to use it up until they ran into the Soviet tanks, after which it was phased out. I honestly think it's fine to have it be upgraded out of family to another tank.
It just seems strange to have TD upgrade patch for Pz38(t) and not have one for PzI, which became obsolete much earlier, both historically and in-game.
The reason is, what would I have it upgraded to? The Panzerjager IB in 1942, which shares a family with the Marder II now? That's hardy optimal.

The P38(t)A to the Marder III has some historical justification; at the very least, they shared the same chassis. And the Marder III is useful all the way up to 1944/1945.

Anyway, if you play on Rommel or with even less prestige, you might notice that the Panzer I has its uses in Poland and France and even Russia for a bit. I think it's fine to have on occasion a few units with no upgrade potential. The Panzer I has 2 full GCs to shine. Similarly, the Marder II doesn't have any further upgrades after 1942, but it's useful potentially up to 1943 or even later. Remember, you still keep some experience and most critically your heroes when you upgrade. You could of course disband that Panzer I for the 120-130 prestige if you want too.

What I do is I upgrade a Panzer I to a long-barreled Panzer IV or even a Tiger tank. I have a A3 PzI that I'll upgrade to a Tiger in 1943. Similarly, I'll probably upgrade my Marder II to a Jagdpanther.

Edit: I see no reason to swap the Panzer I to the AT class though, it's essentially the same as keeping it in the tank class for out-of-family upgrade purposes. I honestly can't think of a good solution, but if you have another idea, I'd be happy to hear it.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:25 am
by deducter
monkspider wrote:
I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this!

I am in 1942 now, up to Sevastopol. My core is still doing well with over 20k in the bank. I am glad that you moved up the HS-129 availability, it is a fun unit. As you can see by my relatively quick progress, playing with your mod has been pretty addicting. :)

One thing I definitely have noticed is that I use a substantially larger than normal Luftwaffe, both in response to the much more menacing Red Air Force and to the stronger than normal Soviet armor. Let me know if you have any critques or suggestions for my core.

40th Infantry Divison
3x Wehrmacht Infantry
1x Pak 36 (I don't know what it is about Pak 36's but they are one of the most satisfying units to use)
1x Marder II
1x 10.5cm artillery
1x 15cm artillery

1st SS Panzer Division
1x SE Panzer IIIN
1x SE Panzer IVG
1x SE Panzer III/J1
2x SE Gremadiers
1x Sturmpanzer II
1x 88 FLAK (with 2 move! Probably my favorite unit)
1x 10cm Neelwerfer

9th Panzer Division
1x Panzer 38-T
1x Panzer IIIJ
1x Panzer IVF/2
1x 10.5 artillery
1x STuG IIIB
1x Wehrmacht Infantry
1x Kradschutzen
1x Pionere
1x 3.7 FLAK

4x ME-109F
1x ME-109E
2x JU-87D
1x HS-129
1x HE 111H2
1x DO-217
2x ME-110F
Looks good! This is what I'm interested in, a comparison between two cores with a different focus, instead of a all Panther/Tiger core and a subpar core. One thing though, it's not possible to have the Panzer IVG in my mod in Sevastopol. It's only available at the start of Storming Stalingrad. Are you sure it's not the Panzer IVF/2?

I generally have less air power but more artillery than you. Then again, air units are essentially flying artillery. The Hs 129 is especially nice when you get it up to 3-4 stars.

What's your policy on overstrength/elite reinforcements? If you have 20k prestige, it means 1)you're too good for anything less than Rommel and 2)you're not using a lot of either. You might not have 1943 to be too bad though, but even if you have like 30k in the bank 1944 and 1945 should still be somewhat challenging.

Right now, elite reinforcements aren't too critical, since the Soviets are still stuck at 1 star for the most part. But just wait until 1943-1944. If you try to fight the 2-3 star Soviet units with only 1-2 stars on yours, it'll very, very hard. I'm not saying you need a core with all 4-5 star units. What I think is critical is to select which units you want to have as your truly elite, shock troops, your Herman Goring Panzer division or your Großdeutschland division and maintain those at elite status with overstrength, while keeping some of your other units to have less experience.

So based on your core, I'd focus more on getting air superiority, maybe with something like 7 fighters for 1943 to make full use of your bombers. The Kursk South path will probably be easier for you, since TAC and air power are more important on that path, but artillery and infantry are more important for the north path.


Try out the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It's a very cheap, very effective AT weapon, until you run up against IS-1s/KV-85s.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:33 am
by deducter
I'll be releasing another version very soon, but it'll be mostly bugfixes and including the correct version of the manual, along with some of the posted suggestions.

One new component: slight reduction to the prices of the StuG IIIB, StuH 42, StuG IV, and Brummbar.

Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:11 am
by monkspider
deducter wrote:
monkspider wrote:

Looks good! This is what I'm interested in, a comparison between two cores with a different focus, instead of a all Panther/Tiger core and a subpar core. One thing though, it's not possible to have the Panzer IVG in my mod in Sevastopol. It's only available at the start of Storming Stalingrad. Are you sure it's not the Panzer IVF/2?

I generally have less air power but more artillery than you. Then again, air units are essentially flying artillery. The Hs 129 is especially nice when you get it up to 3-4 stars.

What's your policy on overstrength/elite reinforcements? If you have 20k prestige, it means 1)you're too good for anything less than Rommel and 2)you're not using a lot of either. You might not have 1943 to be too bad though, but even if you have like 30k in the bank 1944 and 1945 should still be somewhat challenging.

Right now, elite reinforcements aren't too critical, since the Soviets are still stuck at 1 star for the most part. But just wait until 1943-1944. If you try to fight the 2-3 star Soviet units with only 1-2 stars on yours, it'll very, very hard. I'm not saying you need a core with all 4-5 star units. What I think is critical is to select which units you want to have as your truly elite, shock troops, your Herman Goring Panzer division or your Großdeutschland division and maintain those at elite status with overstrength, while keeping some of your other units to have less experience.

So based on your core, I'd focus more on getting air superiority, maybe with something like 7 fighters for 1943 to make full use of your bombers. The Kursk South path will probably be easier for you, since TAC and air power are more important on that path, but artillery and infantry are more important for the north path.


Try out the 7.5 cm Pak 40. It's a very cheap, very effective AT weapon, until you run up against IS-1s/KV-85s.
Thank you very much for the feedback! Your suggested tactics for 1943 make a lot of sense, they should definitely help out. You are correct, they were Panzer IVF and Panzer IVF/2s, respectively. Sorry about that. I am using eiite reinforcements 90-95% of the time, nearly all of my units are at the experience cap. I plan to finally make the jump to Rommel on my next play through, I think the tips I picked up from your videos have finally made me a good enough player to "outgrow" General level.

It is tempting to upgrade my Pak 36, but the little 3.7 "doorknocker" has so much charm, I just can't bring myself to do it. Plus, killing suppressed T-34s/KV1s with it is just too satisfying.

-Edit Also, I agree with you on the Panzer I. It is a true prestige saving unit, I used it to great effect up to the first Soviet scenario. Like the Pak 36, it is an "underdog" unit that is fun and satisfying to use effectively.