Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

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deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:14 am

Updated to v1.83. Includes numerous bugfixes as pointed out by the posters, an updated manual, and some very small tweaks.

Major changes:
1. Panzer IIC upgradeable to the Panzer IIF in 1941.
2. StuG IIIB, StuH 42, StuG IV, Brummbar cost reduced by 5-10%.
3. Panzer IIIN receives +2 CD for a total of 6 starting in 1943.

Remember, if you're a player looking for a "historical" challenge, don't worry if 1939-1941 or even if 1942 is not too hard. Just try 1943 and especially 1944/1945 out. If it's still too easy, I'd be glad to buff a lot of the Soviet units.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:16 am

deducter wrote: 2. StuG IIIB, StuH 42, StuG IV, Brummbar cost reduced by 5-10%.
I haven't managed to speak up before the latest round of changes, so I'll do it now. I miss a bit the price decrease of StuG IIIB in 1942-43. I understand the historical reasons, but for the gameplay: lesser players (me!) might have StuGs that do tend to get injured and loose overstrenght easily.

The price decrease with time helped a lot, since other self-propelled artillery at that time is not good enough against tanks. At the end of 1942 I have 3-4 StuGs (I converted my Stalingrad StuH42 back into StuG IIIB, when city battles ended). Is this ahistorical?


EDIT: I compared prices on StuG IIIB in 1.81 and 1.83 - right now its costs starting from 1941 are basically the same as they used to be in 1942 (after the first price drop). So I might still benefit from it.

I haven't yet played through 1943 (I was doing so bad in the first scenario that I had to get back to the last scenario of 1942, to save some prestige by not losing units this time). But if I understand correctly, the Germans do not really field much SP artillery with high HA - meaning my old trusty StuGs will still be usefull for some time - provided I overstrenght them. So I still miss the price reduction. :)

What are other players' thoughts on this?
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:30 am

Also - I don't know if it's a feature or a mistake:

Panzer IIF does become a tank in 1941, but it is of PzIIRec series, while Panzer IIC still stays in PzII class - so upgrade in series is impossible. In 1942 - both units are in PzIIRec.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:52 pm

orlinos wrote:Also - I don't know if it's a feature or a mistake:

Panzer IIF does become a tank in 1941, but it is of PzIIRec series, while Panzer IIC still stays in PzII class - so upgrade in series is impossible. In 1942 - both units are in PzIIRec.
Most certainly a mistake, i have to do a better job of proofing stuff! Will fix asap.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:55 pm

Updated to v1.831, fixed the issue with the Panzer II upgrades in 1941.

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:04 pm

Just got done playing Tatsinskaya... let's just say if you want to win DV on this scenario, 2 4-star overstrength 88 gun is very, very, very helpful. Ah the 88 gun, truly the secret weapon of the Wehrmacht.

In 1942, my recommendations are:
1. Enjoy your last year of air superiority! It may be wise to in fact overstrength 2-3 fighters to sweep the skies of the Russians in early-mid 1942; this may in fact end up saving you prestige, as I lost a lot of strength points for my air units in Ilolyva and Buzinovka Depot because I took too long to finish off the VVS.
2. The slight increase of elite reinforcement costs in 1942 probably isn't too noticeable, but just wait until 1943. The costs are very noticeable. It gets much worse in 1944 too.
3. For Sevastopol Assault and the Stalingrad missions, overstrength artlilery and infantry are extremely helpful. I recommend at least 3-4 4-star 14-strength infantry and nearly all of your artillery to be overstrength if you want to win DV.
4. You may not have the Tiger tank until the very end of 1942, but the 88 gun has the same HA as a Tiger. Use it to wreck all Russian tanks. The 7.5 cm Pak 40 is also surprisingly good (so much so that I'm considering massively raising its cost in 1942 and lowering it in 1943).
Last edited by deducter on Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:02 pm

deducter wrote:The 7.5 cm Pak 40 is also surprisingly good (so much so that I'm considering massively raising its cost in 1942 and lowering it in 1943).
I have my doubts about it, since the AT in Panzer Corps (at least for me) are supposed to be cheap but hard to position correctly. Raise the costs too much and it will just be better to use a tank or a SP AT.

Or, if I understand your idea correctly, with higher costs it might be better for less skilled players to rather use in 1942 the 5 cm PaK - to save prestige?
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:30 pm

I think the key point to note is that the more towed AT you have, the harder it is to use them. Almost everyone uses at least 1 or 2 towed AT in 1939-1941: the 88 gun. Start adding more and positioning becomes very tricky.

As for the 7.5 cm Pak 40, the main reason I want to increase costs in 1942 was that this gun didn't become prevalent until 1943, so basically historical reasons. And my personal testing found that an experienced crew manning this weapon is very powerful.

orlinos
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by orlinos » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:51 pm

deducter wrote:I think the key point to note is that the more towed AT you have, the harder it is to use them. Almost everyone uses at least 1 or 2 towed AT in 1939-1941: the 88 gun. Start adding more and positioning becomes very tricky.
Hey, maybe that's the reason I'm so bad in using AT. :D
At the beginning of 1943 I have 2 AT units and two 88's. (I didn't always use all of them in every scenario - I bought so many to train them early on).

At this moment I most often use AT to protect flanks (like I shown in my guide illustrations), since they can be left without artillery support for some time (before infantry arrives). I still find it hard to position them in a meaningful way at the front.

One thing I noticed in my play, is that since I am very cautious, I tended to get many stalemates in 1942, especially when using AT and 88’s. AI tanks are not so stupid to attack them, they do not like to attack other units either (since they are covered with lots of artillery) so they just move and sometimes do nothing. I should try to learn how to use these movements to put enemy in tactically bad positions.

(From what little I played in 1943, times of stalemates are over. Experiences Reds attack and attack hard).
deducter wrote: As for the 7.5 cm Pak 40, the main reason I want to increase costs in 1942 was that this gun didn't become prevalent until 1943, so basically historical reasons. And my personal testing found that an experienced crew manning this weapon is very powerful.
True, I appreciate the fact, that I can often use these guns with no or little artillery barrage before attack, since the AT costs relatively not much to replace or overstrength. That means I can use artillery on something else.
Piotr 'Orlinos' Kozlowski

deducter
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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:42 am

Towed AT is very useful on the flanks, for exactly the reason described: the AI generally won't attack with its tanks into the player's towed AT. Be wary of Katyusha rockets and the various Soviet assault guns in 1943, however.

To employ towed AT correctly, understanding ZOC is critical. Basically, try to spread your units out and have your towed AT plugged into safe gaps in between your groups of units. You can then shift it to the front next turn. I generally try to plan 2-3 moves ahead to maximize my combat results and get my units into the correct position, so using towed AT is easier for me.

It might be another week or two before I upload more videos, but maybe I'll try to take some screenshots of good examples of positioning and tactical battles as I play 1943, because that's the year when truly brilliant tactics (or 30k prestige in the bank, an impossibility on Rommel) is necessary to win DV.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by dragos » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:09 am

Lately I don't play with your mod, but I would consider reducing the prestige cost of towed AT guns significantly to make them an appeal. I would suggest lowering the prestige for them drastically, like half! Why? Because for 1939-1940 the 37mm PaK is awful, and in 1941-42 why would someone would purchase 50 or 75mm PaK instead of Stug III F even on Rommel? Given the limited number of units that can be deployed, why would someone deploy PaKs instead of StuGs, which are way more versatile? I reckon the most reasonable would be to train them to get some stars and leaving them in reserve for years before upgrading them to Elefants/Jagdpanthers

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:26 am

dragos wrote:Lately I don't play with your mod, but I would consider reducing the prestige cost of towed AT guns significantly to make them an appeal. I would suggest lowering the prestige for them drastically, like half! Why? Because for 1939-1940 the 37mm PaK is awful, and in 1941-42 why would someone would purchase 50 or 75mm PaK instead of Stug III F even on Rommel? Given the limited number of units that can be deployed, why would someone deploy PaKs instead of StuGs, which are way more versatile? I reckon the most reasonable would be to train them to get some stars and leaving them in reserve for years before upgrading them to Elefants/Jagdpanthers
Normally I like criticism, but please at least have played with this mod in the late war 1943-1945 before commenting on balance.

That said, the prices for the towed AT cannot go lower, due to the transport costs. The Pak 36 costs 56 prestige and the truck 100 prestige... to lower this by half, I'd have to massively lower the cost of the trucks too. This screws up the balance of all sorts of units.

In this mod, you can of course train some stars on your towed AT units and upgrade them to heavy AT units. You'd lose about 2.5 stars in 1944 doing so however. Furthermore, Elefants are only available for purchase on the very beginning of Kursk. Jagdpanthers cost 1400 prestige, and can have at most 2 stars when you upgrade, and have very low air defense, so are vulnerable to bombers. And elite reinforcement/overstrength costs are doubled in 1944. I doubt anyone is running around with 10 Jagdpanthers in 1944 on Rommel because it is simply unaffordable. On the other hand, the Pak 43 has the same amount of attack as the JagdPanther but cost a tiny fraction of the price (270 + 100 transport).

The reason for getting towed AT is to train it up to get the final product, the Pak 43, which is an amazing AT weapon for the cost. It is the most cost efficient AT unit and imo more durable than the Nashorn.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by dragos » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:01 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean to criticize. I forgot your mod has xp penalty when upgrading outside family. I was wondering whether it is useful to buy towed AT guns at all during 1939-1942 since it appears it is more useful to use infantry instead of 37mm PaK or Stugs instead of 50/75 mm PaK.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:14 pm

In 1939-1940, the 3.7 cm PaK 36 is inferior to buying a tank in terms of efficiency. This unit is quite good against light tanks, but useless against the medium/heavy tanks. All of this is historical.

In 1941, the 5.0 cm PaK 38 is introduced, but it's still quite weak and only moderately useful against the T-34 and KV-1 tanks.

In 1942, the 7.5 cm PaK 40 is introduced. It is available fairly early (first or second scenario I believe). Now the towed AT unit becomes quite good. This unit has HA = 16, and in 1942 only three units have equal or better HA: the 88 gun (HA = 19), the StuG IIIF/8 (HA = 16, available starting at Stalingrad Docks), and the Tiger tank (HA = 19, available only as an AUX unit at the very last scenario). So in 1942, the 7.5 cm Pak 40 is useful. You are rewarded for carrying a towed AT unit up to this point, because a 3-4 star 7.5 cm PaK is surprisingly powerful and good throughout 1942 and much of 1943.

In late 1943, you get access to the 8.8 cm PaK 43/41. This unit is incredibly good (HA = 24), especially with 3-4 stars. Watch in amazement as it annihilates almost all Soviet tanks with ease. Only the IS-2 can withstand its firepower, and with luck the IS-1 and the ISU-152/ISU-122 might escape with only light damage. In 1943 and early 1944, only the Nashorn/Hornisse, the Ferdinand/Elefant have equivalent HA. The Nashorn is incredibly fragile, while the Ferdinand is incredibly immobile and expensive, not to mention it can only be purchased at the very beginning of Kursk. The Jagdpanther is available at the middle of 1944 and the King Tiger is available towards the end. It is impossible to get 3-4 star on any of these other units upon their debut, but it is possible with the 8.8 cm Pak 43/41 (you can get a 5-star one actually, and it's not even that expensive in terms of elite reinforcements). So that's the powergaming reason for getting a towed AT unit. It just takes a very long time to pay off.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by dragos » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:25 pm

deducter wrote: In 1942, the 7.5 cm PaK 40 is introduced. It is available fairly early (first or second scenario I believe). Now the towed AT unit becomes quite good. This unit has HA = 16, and in 1942 only three units have equal or better HA: the 88 gun (HA = 19), the StuG IIIF/8 (HA = 16, available starting at Stalingrad Docks), and the Tiger tank (HA = 19, available only as an AUX unit at the very last scenario). So in 1942, the 7.5 cm Pak 40 is useful. You are rewarded for carrying a towed AT unit up to this point, because a 3-4 star 7.5 cm PaK is surprisingly powerful and good throughout 1942 and much of 1943.
I think the StuG IIIF/8 becomes available around the middle of 1942 campaign, Voronezh I guess.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:43 pm

I changed a lot of the availability dates of units. The StuG IIIF is moved to Voronezh (HA = 14), the StuG IIIF/8 is moved to Stalingrad Docks. A lot of units in 1942 have been moved to a later date to make this year somewhat more challenging.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:28 pm

The towed anti-tank guns work surprisingly well in the context of your mod. I am even still rocking my 3.7 PAK and I am about to start Storming Stalingrad. It is still reasonably effective with 14 strength and four stars.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:39 am

I am up to the first battle of Kursk south, things really do get significantly tougher in 1943. The increased reinforcement costs are very noticable. I was able to pretty much overstrength all my units even in 1942, although I hit "peak prestige" around Stalingrad at about 27k. Now I have to be very careful about using elite reinforcements, my prestige is currently at about 15k. I am trying to avoid dropping too far below that number, so this means that the days of full overstrength are over. This is pretty awesome, you definitely feel the manpower pinch that the Germans started to feel at this point, cautious gameplay is more important than ever.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by deducter » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:15 am

monkspider wrote:I am up to the first battle of Kursk south, things really do get significantly tougher in 1943. The increased reinforcement costs are very noticable. I was able to pretty much overstrength all my units even in 1942, although I hit "peak prestige" around Stalingrad at about 27k. Now I have to be very careful about using elite reinforcements, my prestige is currently at about 15k. I am trying to avoid dropping too far below that number, so this means that the days of full overstrength are over. This is pretty awesome, you definitely feel the manpower pinch that the Germans started to feel at this point, cautious gameplay is more important than ever.
I'm glad you like this change, it sounds like this is working exactly as it is intended. Remember, experience gain rates at 200exp and greater has been noticeably increased, so it may not be a bad idea to give some of your elite units normal reinforcements. Keep mind the costs jump even more in 1944, to the point where I worry that it might be a bit too much.

The idea is to select carefully what units you want to overstrength. For instance, I used a 14-strength SE Panzer IIIM with an A3 hero throughout 1943, and that unit is awesome. It is cheap and often devastates a T-34 without suffering any damage in return fire due to the very high INI of the Panzer IIIM. It's effective INI is 11 and its effective HA is 20, the same as a green Panther, for only a fraction of the price! This is what I feels like it would have been to command an elite Panzer group during Kursk. Despite the inferior equipment of the Panzer IIIM, the superior skills and training of the German tank crews wins out. The problem is of course that when experienced German tankers die, they become irreplaceable, whereas the Soviets only seem to grow stronger after each battle.

During Kursk South, I feel air power and armor are critical to success. Try out the Hornisse, it is surprisingly good once you get can 2-3 stars on one. Consider upgrading a Marder II to it. You should use your air power to full advantage. I typically overstrength at least one fighter, a Bf 109G, but even 2-3 could be a good call. I also keep some bombers overstrength and some just at 10-strength, and I send the ones at 10-strength into sectors where I expect to take some damage. The Hs 129 is a good choice for this. You should notice that TAC destroys all Russian tanks without a sweat, but the Russian AA and fighter presence is much, much tougher in 1943.

Basically, in 1943-1944 to win DV usually requires you to expend prestige, but settling for MV should save you prestige. The defensive scenarios are a great chance for this. Place some infantry in close terrain and watch them annihilate wave after wave of Soviet tanks.

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Re: Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for PzC v1.10

Post by monkspider » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:19 am

Thanks again for the sage advice. I beat Kiev '43 just before the recent beta test started, I had to settle for Marginal Victories on all of the Kursk scenarios but got a few decisive victories over the course of 1943. I took your advice and purchased a Hornisse and used it to pretty good effect. It's low cost makes it a solid addition to the core. The air war got even tougher but some of my FW-190s got up to four stars, making them finally superior to my 109 veterans. I think the interplay of the various units works very well and I actually kind of miss it when I am playing with the stock equipment file. The medium Panzers and varying anti-tank units and advanced AFVs/anti-tank units all seem to have their own niche and set of tactical affordances. I am looking forward to 1944 once the beta test ends. :)

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